Author Topic: The veiled stars  (Read 165 times)

Offline phas

  • Posts: 5
  • Cookies: 0
The veiled stars
« on: June 16, 2017, 01:46:08 AM »
A long time ago (in a gal.. no wait, that was another universe) there was a Lord of the Rings total conversion for Mount and Blade: Warband called "the veiled stars".

Why do we care, I can hear you ask! Are you drunk, I can image you screaming at the monitor. (I might be)

After the first public release of the mod, the second were delayed. The developer said that he was busy with university and he would resume work in a couple of months.

So I made a post on the project forum saying "Hey pal, be sensible, put everything on github with an open source licence. Best case scenario, you get some people looking at the code and sending patches. Worst case scenario you get a life, stop working on a mod that doesn't get you any money (as its' happening) and maybe someone can continue your work"

I expected to be instabanned because you know, modding communities.

I was not instabannded. Some people came to say that this was a nice idea but the developer has a very personal way of doing things and that he didn't want other people to "steal his work" and the usual crap (sorry, i don't mean disrespect, but it is)

I tried to explain how open source development works. That he was not forced to accept patches. That it was very unlikely to someone to fork it if he kept working on it etc but to no avail. In the end the source was not opened. No respository on github. Nothing.

You can google for "the veiled stars" now and find.. nothing. As predicted the developer got a degree/got a girlfriend/got a job/whatever and a lot of good and promising work went to nothing.

So my advice is the same. Take the current source code of "star trek excalibur", choose whatever open source licence you like and put it on github NOW. There's nothing to lose and everything to gain. Literally.

P.s. As a positive example you can look at the kerbal space program community. The community is mostly composed of professional computer scientist and programmers so naturally everything is on github and everything is open source. (We kinda know how to do our jobs). When a big established mod dies - it happens you know - almost immediately is forked and picked up by someone else. cfr interstellar extend or bdarmory continued

Offline BenjiTheWalrus

  • Ship's Counselor
  • PR Team
  • Posts: 900
  • Cookies: 61
  • Space Whale
Re: The veiled stars
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2017, 02:24:44 AM »
I will admit that making the project open source has crossed the minds of the team in the past, but the idea was ultimately not what we had in mind. For starters, our team has a vision for the project, with very specific guidelines. Our lead developer has already laid the groundwork for this vision of the project. Second, there is no need to open source the project when absolutely anybody is free to submit their work or join the team, following a probationary period to test their skills. If they are able to do quality work, then they're in. The project needs a sense of management so we don't have 20 different programmers creating their own versions of what they think the game should be like, with no semblance or structure. I know it's been a long time, and I know it's hard waiting for the final project, I have to wait too; the road is paved and we're on our way, and we'll get there in due time.
"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination."
-Garak

"I have a dream; a dream that all people -- human, Jem'Hadar, Ferengi, Cardassians -- will someday stand together in peace... around my Dabo tables."
 -Quark

"Rom's an idiot. He couldn't fix a straw if it was bent"
-Odo

Offline phas

  • Posts: 5
  • Cookies: 0
Re: The veiled stars
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2017, 03:41:22 AM »
You are saying the very same things that the dev from "The veiled stars" said. Almost exactly. So I'll try to say to you what I said to him, hoping to be more persuasive this time.

You don't seem to have an operative knowledge on how an open source project works. Hey mate, it's ok. It's not a crime. Let me try to explain.

When you release your project to the public as open source, it's not like everyone can get their dirty hands on it and modify it. Only your team does. Exactly as now. Technically it's said that only some people have the "commit bit". What you are saying about management, structure, vision etc would not be altered in any way. Plain and simple.

The difference is that other people might read the code, fork it (although a proper fork in this case is very unlikely, who would do that?) and submit patches to you. Patches that you can accept or discard. Or flatly ignore. Having people able read the code will get to you more potential contributors that you might want to bring it to the team. And the fact that they will send you patches will help you understand if they are able to do "quality work" before including them into the team.

Don't expect a rush tough. As you know computer programming is time consuming. What you probably will get is a lot of bug reports that already point to a solution (because people had been able to look it up in the code) and some hints on refactoring this or fixing that.

And a very good insurance that your project is going to survive and thrive.

Please, I beg you to consider this. Because it will be a very good move for everyone. And no one will lose anything. I can help you and your team to transition to an open source model with advises on licenses, versioning systems, project management systems, trackers and whatever stuff.

P.s. I want to say that I'm no one of those open source fanatics. Like those FSF lunatics. This is not some ideological craziness from my part. It's just that when a project is no profit like this one, there's simply nothing to lose and all to gain to open it.

Offline Darkthunder

  • Moderators
  • Posts: 1175
  • Cookies: 42
  • BC-Central Vice Admin
Re: The veiled stars
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2017, 04:48:22 AM »
I think Benji said it quite nicely:

Quote
Second, there is no need to open source the project when absolutely anybody is free to submit their work or join the team, following a probationary period to test their skills. If they are able to do quality work, then they're in.

If people want development to go faster, get involved! Contribute to the project. Does not need to go open source for this to happen.
Star Trek Excalibur @ IndieDB
Star Trek Excalibur

Offline BenjiTheWalrus

  • Ship's Counselor
  • PR Team
  • Posts: 900
  • Cookies: 61
  • Space Whale
Re: The veiled stars
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2017, 05:13:23 AM »
You don't seem to have an operative knowledge on how an open source project works. Hey mate, it's ok. It's not a crime. Let me try to explain.

When you release your project to the public as open source, it's not like everyone can get their dirty hands on it and modify it. Only your team does. Exactly as now. Technically it's said that only some people have the "commit bit". What you are saying about management, structure, vision etc would not be altered in any way. Plain and simple.

My friend, what you are suggesting is basically how this project already works. Anyone is free to submit work, quality work, at their own pace. And our team decides what is submitted to the master build. We do not want the average joe having access to our build in case they want to create their own project with our assets or something and maybe slightly modify them to make them look like their own. That sounds a little paranoid, but any number if sketchy situations can occur. The bottom line is, if you want to join the team or submit content, just ask. 90% of the time we get a quality worker who just wants to participate in a wonderful project and exciting community, and that's what we are here to offer.
"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination."
-Garak

"I have a dream; a dream that all people -- human, Jem'Hadar, Ferengi, Cardassians -- will someday stand together in peace... around my Dabo tables."
 -Quark

"Rom's an idiot. He couldn't fix a straw if it was bent"
-Odo

Offline phas

  • Posts: 5
  • Cookies: 0
Re: The veiled stars
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2017, 03:11:03 PM »
I think Benji said it quite nicely:

If people want development to go faster, get involved! Contribute to the project. Does not need to go open source for this to happen.

That's not the point. The point is having a more robust and flexible development model that makes so your project never dies.
Come on, there's a reason if the overwhelming majority of the non profit software is open source.

Offline phas

  • Posts: 5
  • Cookies: 0
Re: The veiled stars
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2017, 03:12:56 PM »
My friend, what you are suggesting is basically how this project already works. Anyone is free to submit work, quality work, at their own pace. And our team decides what is submitted to the master build. We do not want the average joe having access to our build in case they want to create their own project with our assets or something and maybe slightly modify them to make them look like their own. That sounds a little paranoid, but any number if sketchy situations can occur. The bottom line is, if you want to join the team or submit content, just ask. 90% of the time we get a quality worker who just wants to participate in a wonderful project and exciting community, and that's what we are here to offer.

Well you can starting by opening up the source code and not the assets. Not ideal but a start.

Offline Darkthunder

  • Moderators
  • Posts: 1175
  • Cookies: 42
  • BC-Central Vice Admin
Re: The veiled stars
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2017, 03:35:08 PM »
That's not the point. The point is having a more robust and flexible development model that makes so your project never dies.
Come on, there's a reason if the overwhelming majority of the non profit software is open source.

Project will never die. Even if it ends up being just 1 man developing it (which has actually been the case in the past) :P

So no, Excalibur doesn't need to go open source. If you wanna contribute, get involved! Otherwise, the only thing I can recommend is patience. I could say Soon™ which is quite common in game development.
Star Trek Excalibur @ IndieDB
Star Trek Excalibur

Offline phas

  • Posts: 5
  • Cookies: 0
Re: The veiled stars
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2017, 05:31:27 PM »
Project will never die. Even if it ends up being just 1 man developing it (which has actually been the case in the past) :P

So no, Excalibur doesn't need to go open source. If you wanna contribute, get involved! Otherwise, the only thing I can recommend is patience. I could say Soon™ which is quite common in game development.

Yeah. And you know what also is common almost as common as "Soon" in no profit game/mod development scene? Dying.

*sigh* well I tried I suppose. Good luck mate.

Offline BenjiTheWalrus

  • Ship's Counselor
  • PR Team
  • Posts: 900
  • Cookies: 61
  • Space Whale
Re: The veiled stars
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2017, 01:56:02 AM »
Yeah. And you know what also is common almost as common as "Soon" in no profit game/mod development scene? Dying.

*sigh* well I tried I suppose. Good luck mate.

We've been around for a loooong time, my guy. While that's not necessarily a good thing, it shows how dedicated we are to this project. No open sourcing, if you want to join the team, go right ahead.
"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination."
-Garak

"I have a dream; a dream that all people -- human, Jem'Hadar, Ferengi, Cardassians -- will someday stand together in peace... around my Dabo tables."
 -Quark

"Rom's an idiot. He couldn't fix a straw if it was bent"
-Odo