hnewberry99 vs. Black Patriot

[hnewberry99]

Round 1.

"Night"

I thought it was a good episode, if not a little Eco-Oriented.

[Black Patriot]

Ok, I'm running off what I remember and the Memory Alpha article for that episode, as I'm at work at the moment, but just off the top of my head:

1) the region is supposed to be in an area where the closest star is over 2500 ly away. That by itself is somewhat unlikely, but not impossible. What is impossible is for there to be no light at all. Unless there's something to block the light, such as dust, then the light from the nearest star will simply continue travelling forever, including into a region 2500 ly away. We receive light from galaxies millions of lightyears away, so there's no real reason for that area to be dark. This was never explained (or if it was it's not in the memory alpha article).

2) Theta radiation is blocking their sensors: again, not impossible, but really, in the concentrations required for this to be possible we'd need to assume that the crew would be in danger of radiation poisoning (and we know that theta radiation is dangerous, there's an episode after this one where some of the crew are exposed to it).

3) the holodeck keeps working without any power: that's just stupid, after all the bitching they've done about how much power it takes up, the fact that it can keep working, to a certain extent, with no power, is stupid beyond belief. We know, for a fact, that it's just photons and forcefields, so what happens when there's no power to keep generating photons and maintaining the forcefields? As soon as the ship lost power the holodeck should have shut down.

4) the Malon rejects Voyagers recycling technology, because it would destroy his income. This is stupid from a character perspective, as surely if he was the one to bring that technology to his people he'd be able to personally profit hugely, which seems to be all he cares about. Of course the episode needs a villain, so he rejects their offer on the grounds that he's an idiot.

5) the depression that holds Janeway for most of the episode comes completely out of nowhere, and whilst it's a realistic response to her stupidity in getting her crew lost, the fact that it just appears at the start of the 5th season with no build up (or real follow up) is pretty stupid. Admittedly the prospect of 2 years of nothing is a reasonable explanation for her change in attitude, it's still coming out of nowhere. If there had been more hints of it over the season before, then it would have made a lot more sense, and been a more interesting move. We can chalk this one up as a "Missed Opportunity" rather than an episode flaw.

Overall, the episode is built on some stupidity, but is a reasonable episode of Voyager. Plus it has scenes of Neelix suffering, which amuses me immensely. The eco angle is anvilicious, to the extreme, and was clearly created to try to give the episode a "green" feel, without a lot of thought to the reasons and motivations for the Malon, as a people and as an individual character.

Oh, BTW, love the thread title.

[hnewberry99]

I'l give you that one. But what about "Worst Case Scenario" It had an interesting plot and was fun to watch.

[Black Patriot]

Yeah, it is a fairly strong episode, the characters feel pretty good and there isn't much in the way of bad physics, since it's essentially a bottle show.

The only thing about the episode that sort of irritates me is that Seska was able to plant a virus in Tuvok's program. Now it's fully possible that she could have done it, but the question is why? As far as we know she didn't leave any other hidden traps in Voyager's systems, even though most of them would be far more valuable as a target than the holodeck, even if you did get some captives. Even if she did do it just to mess with Tuvok, how did she find the program in the first place, as by the time she'd left the crew was essentially integrated, Tuvok probably would have gotten rid of the program long before then, so Seska would need to have recovered it, modified it, and then deleted it again, hoping that someone else would just happen to recover it at a later date. We know that she modified it just before leaving the ship (technically the stardate they gave was after she left the ship, but we can forgive that) making the whole thing pretty unlikely.

[AricwithanA]

4) the Malon rejects Voyagers recycling technology, because it would destroy his income. This is stupid from a character perspective, as surely if he was the one to bring that technology to his people he'd be able to personally profit hugely, which seems to be all he cares about. Of course the episode needs a villain, so he rejects their offer on the grounds that he's an idiot.

I just wanna pipe in here for a second. 

Actually, that isn't stupid simply because this goes on today in our times.  This was going on years ago and still goes on today.  It is part of the reason why the Pirate Party throughout the world wants a finite cap on patents and any patent not used within a handful of years, you lose the patent.

This is a very, real life analogy and I see no problem with it.

[Black Patriot]

I just wanna pipe in here for a second. 

Actually, that isn't stupid simply because this goes on today in our times.  This was going on years ago and still goes on today.  It is part of the reason why the Pirate Party throughout the world wants a finite cap on patents and any patent not used within a handful of years, you lose the patent.

This is a very, real life analogy and I see no problem with it.

I'm not sure what you mean, yes we have patents, yes they're far too overreaching in their power, but that doesn't have anything to do with my point. He rejects Voyager's technology, even though it cost's him nothing, because it would threaten his current job. Whilst it will make his current position redundant, the new technology would also be incredibly valuable for whomever brings it to the Malon. Eventually someone else is going to do that, and at that point he'd be out of a job anyway, he might as well be the one to invest and actually reap the rewards, rather than let someone else do it. His decision isn't based on doing what's best for his people or even himself, it was a decision required by the story, that's the only way that he could be the villain, so that's what he did. It's a contrivance, not a natural or realistic decision.

You can try and claim that we have people now that reject those sorts of offers, but even that's not true. The Malon are stated to have a huge industry just to dispose of their waste, and that if they don't remove their waste it will quickly overwhelm them. We've never gotten to that point, and whenever a group or individual has made an advancement that could benefit us in a similar way they've always come forward, either because they want to help or they want to profit. Think about catalytic converters, and about how much money that made for it's inventors. They reduced harmful emissions from cars whilst also generating a profit.

[hnewberry99]

I agree with Patriot on this.
I won that round.
How about "Tuvix" It was pretty weird, but it had a stable plot and i found myself rooting for tuvix to stay.

[Tiberius]

I felt dubious about the holodeck power thing myself.  However, early on (perhaps even in the pilot), it was suggested that the holodeck operated on a separate power source.

[AricwithanA]

I'm not sure what you mean, yes we have patents, yes they're far too overreaching in their power, but that doesn't have anything to do with my point. He rejects Voyager's technology, even though it cost's him nothing, because it would threaten his current job. Whilst it will make his current position redundant, the new technology would also be incredibly valuable for whomever brings it to the Malon. Eventually someone else is going to do that, and at that point he'd be out of a job anyway, he might as well be the one to invest and actually reap the rewards, rather than let someone else do it. His decision isn't based on doing what's best for his people or even himself, it was a decision required by the story, that's the only way that he could be the villain, so that's what he did. It's a contrivance, not a natural or realistic decision.

You can try and claim that we have people now that reject those sorts of offers, but even that's not true. The Malon are stated to have a huge industry just to dispose of their waste, and that if they don't remove their waste it will quickly overwhelm them. We've never gotten to that point, and whenever a group or individual has made an advancement that could benefit us in a similar way they've always come forward, either because they want to help or they want to profit. Think about catalytic converters, and about how much money that made for it's inventors. They reduced harmful emissions from cars whilst also generating a profit.

It is as I said, it is an analogy.  We can find many instances where technology, progress and such are not utilized simply because it either can't sell commercially, it will disrupt the profit revenue of someone/business and many other things.  Hell, if we really want to look at it, Humans, today, have the ability to feed, clothe, educate, medical, house every person on this planet.  We don't though.  Why?

Why is the underlying analogy.  Why would the Malon want this technology?  Especially this guy?  In the end, it won't create him money, profits or power.  What it will do is throw an industry into chaos, endanger his own job (who puts themselves out of a job?) and many other things we'd not even be able to speculate because it is a made up culture.  Hell, his life might be endanger just by having this technology.  Can you actually accept, that if you created a cheap device that creates unlimited energy, that your life itself would not endangered?  We are human, we know what humans will do to keep things under their thumbs. 

No, the Malon guy had plenty of reasons not to want the technology.  None of us will agree with those reasonings (just like the Voyager crew could't quite understand) but that isn't the point. 

Another way to think about it is that the gas milage of cars COULD be a lot higher.  Way higher.  Why are they not though?  I am also talking America here.  Same type of mentality/philosophy that the Malon exhibits in the episode.

In the end, what the Malon are, is US of today in the sense of mentality.  Half of star trek is simply analogy to us.  lol

[Black Patriot]

It is as I said, it is an analogy.  We can find many instances where technology, progress and such are not utilized simply because it either can't sell commercially, it will disrupt the profit revenue of someone/business and many other things.  Hell, if we really want to look at it, Humans, today, have the ability to feed, clothe, educate, medical, house every person on this planet.  We don't though.  Why?

Why is the underlying analogy.  Why would the Malon want this technology?  Especially this guy?  In the end, it won't create him money, profits or power.  What it will do is throw an industry into chaos, endanger his own job (who puts themselves out of a job?) and many other things we'd not even be able to speculate because it is a made up culture.  Hell, his life might be endanger just by having this technology.  Can you actually accept, that if you created a cheap device that creates unlimited energy, that your life itself would not endangered?  We are human, we know what humans will do to keep things under their thumbs. 

No, the Malon guy had plenty of reasons not to want the technology.  None of us will agree with those reasonings (just like the Voyager crew could't quite understand) but that isn't the point. 

Another way to think about it is that the gas milage of cars COULD be a lot higher.  Way higher.  Why are they not though?  I am also talking America here.  Same type of mentality/philosophy that the Malon exhibits in the episode.

In the end, what the Malon are, is US of today in the sense of mentality.  Half of star trek is simply analogy to us.  lol

That still doesn't make sense, we're not talking about a problem that affects people in far away countries (such as starvation affecting most of Africa, which many people don't even remember is happening because it's so far away), we're talking about the generation and disposal of huge quantities of toxic waste, and you think that no one would pay for the ability to recycle it into something harmless? What about all the companies that have to spend huge amounts to get the waste removed, what about the health care industry that has to take care of the people who are exposed to it. The idea that there wouldn't be people/groups lining up around the block to get this technology is laughable. This is the key point you miss with your analogies, this recycling technology would provide real, direct, monetary savings , as I said before, think about all the money that's wasted on transporting and disposing of all this toxic waste, not to mention the lost productivity of such a large segment of their economy that could be put to more productive work, or the trade sanctions that'd likely be placed by other civilizations against the Malon because of their bad environmental practices.

We're not talking about unlimited energy, by all account they already have that capability (fusion reactors are a precursor to M/AM warp cores, which they have), all this is about is the disposal of waste, a harmful substance that is a significant drain on their economy. There's no reason for him to not take the technology and make a huge amount of money selling it off, even if it's to the waste corporations so they can keep their empire, either he sells it to someone who'll use it, or he'll sell it to someone to keep it quiet, either way he wins.

And no, gas mileage really couldn't have been much higher than it is today, there are problems with the creation of nitrogen based pollutants when you increase the compression inside an engine cylinder (that's the main way of increasing power without really increasing fuel usage). Not to mention there are plenty of car companies that do sell efficient cars, just that they're not really purchased much in the US because of the ridiculously low gas prices there (no real incentive for most people). But again, this doesn't work to the favor of your point, if there were two cars that were the same size, had the same capabilities, even looked the same, but one had half the fuel consumption of the other then we can pretty much determine which one will be bought first. The biggest example of this is the trucking industry, where an increase in 0.5 mpg is enough for a lot of trucking companies to replace their entire fleets. There's huge competition between truck manufacturers to try to increase efficiency, but even the best trucks only get 5-6 mpg. If there was a more efficient means of running an engine, don't you think they'd be falling all over each other to buy it and get it to market?

I felt dubious about the holodeck power thing myself.  However, early on (perhaps even in the pilot), it was suggested that the holodeck operated on a separate power source.

That was the handwave they put in the 1st season, just so they could keep writing holodeck stories, because apparently they can't write anything else, even when the ship has been stranded in completely unknown space, has a crew that's supposedly on the verge of mutiny (Maquis vs Starfleet), and a power shortage. The whole idea that the holodeck isn't compatible with the rest of the ship is so fucking stupid that if I had the opportunity to repeatedly punch the writer that thought it up I would.

I agree with Patriot on this.
I won that round.
How about "Tuvix" It was pretty weird, but it had a stable plot and i found myself rooting for tuvix to stay.

I'll get to Tuvix when I get home, got a lot of work to do today.

[Black Patriot]

Ok, Tuvix, lets get started *rubs hands together*

1) The imaging scanners on the transporters were malfunctioning, which sounds to me like a good reason not to use them, but hey Janeway doesn't really care about her crew's safety so we can ignore the decision to use them. The question remains, why were there only one set of imaging scanners, when the transporters have multiple redundant systems, precisely to avoid this sort of accident. Even if all the transporters run through a single set of imaging scanners, there are plenty of shuttles that have working imaging scanners (they don't say they're not working, so we can presume that they are). Though this is an old complaint against Trek writers, the inability to use the shuttle or cargo transporters, it's still irritating, though strangely TOS usually had an actual reason for transporters as a whole to be non-functional, such as interference or something, whereas more modern incarnations just sort of say "they don't work, that is all".

2) If Tuvok and Neelix got fused into a single life form, that's not really any bigger than either of them, where did the rest of them go? And where did all the bits of them come from when Tuvix was ripped apart?

3) the main premise is laughably stupid, that a flower could cause to people to fuse into a single, living organism, instead of a pile of biomatter on the transporter pad. See I can buy that the flower might cause something, it's pretty stupid, but not overly so, but the fact that there isn't a mound of flesh and bone that rematerializes on the transporter pad crosses the line, it's completely over the top. Of course the rest of the episode doesn't really dwell on it too much, there's some stuff from the Doctor about how he'll reverse it, but it's primarily about how Tuvix adjusts to being a new member of the crew, and how the crew essentially rejects him.

4) Janeway makes an end of life decision for Tuvix, despite having no legal authority to do so; Tuvix is a living sentient being, he has every right to choose whether to undergo the procedure, and Janeway doesn't have the right to overrule him. Essentially, the moment Tuvok and Neelix were dematerialized, they were dead, there's no reason to risk this new lifeform, which is frankly a slight improvement on both characters, on the chance of bringing two dead crew members back from the grave, and risk loosing all three.

I will say this, the performance of Tom Wright (Tuvix) is what makes this episode, if they'd cast a weaker actor the whole thing would have fallen through, but he gives such a performance that you sort of forget all the idiotic and borderline psychotic things that happen in the episode, and focus instead on the struggles and death of Tuvix.

Plus the episode had Neelix die for a bit, in possibly the worst way (ripped apart into nothingness), which again, amuses me greatly (you seem to have a knack for choosing episodes where Neelix gets what's coming to him, bravo).

I would recommend watching the review of Tuvix by SFDebris, but it's not online at the moment, he's in the middle of re-mastering all his videos because of a youtube stuff up. Chuck is much better at this than I am, and his analyses are far more in depth. Don't let the crude humor fool you into thinking it's just Voyager bashing. In the meantime I would recommend watching his review on Caretaker, where he explains the high hopes he had for Voyager back in 1994, and what quickly drove him (and a large chunk of the audience) away.

[Jon Deane]

On the technology thing, you're being too specific.  Toxic waste removal never became one of the big industries on Earth.  Let's look at something that has: big oil.  They CONSTANTLY obstruct efforts to move people off of fossil fuels.  Never mind that everyone who isn't a big oil person would be better off, they still obstruct it.  We won't really be able to move off of oil until it's gone as a result, so for short term profits big oil is dooming the global economy to collapse.

How does this happen?  It speaks to the power of corruption.

It's the way the world works.  We could also talk about how the publishers would rather litigate and implement draconian DRM scheme rather than accept extinction in a digital world (not unlike the Malon trash guy).

[AricwithanA]

On the technology thing, you're being too specific.  Toxic waste removal never became one of the big industries on Earth.  Let's look at something that has: big oil.  They CONSTANTLY obstruct efforts to move people off of fossil fuels.  Never mind that everyone who isn't a big oil person would be better off, they still obstruct it.  We won't really be able to move off of oil until it's gone as a result, so for short term profits big oil is dooming the global economy to collapse.

How does this happen?  It speaks to the power of corruption.

It's the way the world works.  We could also talk about how the publishers would rather litigate and implement draconian DRM scheme rather than accept extinction in a digital world (not unlike the Malon trash guy).

Science Fiction is the best canvas to explore the human condition! 
------
Black Patriot, you do realize, we have the ability to recycle everything around us.  We can collect energy in a plethora of different ways.   Right now, we could be so much farther ahead in these aspects but why do we not?   Hell, plasma gasification machines are something the sanitation departments/businesses do not want to be used.  With lots of money and lines to politicians, implementing these awesome devices is tough.  You are focusing upon the acts themselves.  Remove the acts from the philosophy/mentality.

When you do that, you can see the same type of mentality/philosophy of the Malon in many people in our world.  While the acts differ and situations diverse, ie. from patents, to energy, to waste, etc, etc...the mentality that leads to such acts are the underlying meaning and the aspect being dealt with in that episode.  Star Trek follows the more, classical type of science fiction where things, aliens, ideas and more are representations of things in real life.  I am sure you know this, so I'm not sure why you dislike this aspect of a specific episode.

[hnewberry99]

Stop Posting stuff from 2 episodes ago. Move to a new topic!

I need to put this up before i forget. What about "Mortal Coil"? This is gonna be Good....

[Black Patriot]

Science Fiction is the best canvas to explore the human condition! 
------
Black Patriot, you do realize, we have the ability to recycle everything around us.  We can collect energy in a plethora of different ways.   Right now, we could be so much farther ahead in these aspects but why do we not?   Hell, plasma gasification machines are something the sanitation departments/businesses do not want to be used.  With lots of money and lines to politicians, implementing these awesome devices is tough.  You are focusing upon the acts themselves.  Remove the acts from the philosophy/mentality.

When you do that, you can see the same type of mentality/philosophy of the Malon in many people in our world.  While the acts differ and situations diverse, ie. from patents, to energy, to waste, etc, etc...the mentality that leads to such acts are the underlying meaning and the aspect being dealt with in that episode.  Star Trek follows the more, classical type of science fiction where things, aliens, ideas and more are representations of things in real life.  I am sure you know this, so I'm not sure why you dislike this aspect of a specific episode.

Uh, no we can't, it's not economically efficient. Unless we can harvest more energy than we put in, i.e. generating a net increase in energy, then it's not efficient, an no business is going to do it. Yes there is a lot of corruption, yes there is a lot of potential for abuse, no this has nothing to do with the decision that Malon captain made. Let me state it again.

He could take Voyager's technology, "promise" to stop dumping in the void, and do 1 of 2 things:
1) sell the technology to an environmental group/government that is interested in removing the need to dispose of the toxic waste.
2) sell the technology to the disposal industry so they can bury it to keep their empire.

In both cases he wins, he profits personally, and there's nothing to stop him from dumping back in the void if he chooses the second option. If he'd "promised" to stop, then Janeway would have likely taken his word for it, and he could have taken them through the wormhole (or whatever they called it) without Voyager feeling the need to destroy it. That does depend on his acting, but it's hardly implausible that he could have convinced Voyager to not destroy the wormhole. Then once Voyager is safely on its way he can go back to doing what he was doing before, only that much richer simply because he'd be able to get paid off by the toxic waste industry. Or he could retire and sell the technology to the Malon government. Or he could even start his own business purifying waste. In every scenario he personally profits, which was the "reason" he didn't want the technology. Not because he didn't think it would work, he did. Not because he had some ideological problem with recycling, he accepted a life threatening job to dispose of the waste, even knowing that he would likely die of Theta radiation poisoning. He only didn't want to take it because it would threaten his job, i.e. his money. And to top it all off, eventually someone is going to come up with a way of recycling the toxic waste, and then he'll be out of a job anyway, except he wouldn't have gotten the payout.

On the technology thing, you're being too specific.  Toxic waste removal never became one of the big industries on Earth.  Let's look at something that has: big oil.  They CONSTANTLY obstruct efforts to move people off of fossil fuels.  Never mind that everyone who isn't a big oil person would be better off, they still obstruct it.  We won't really be able to move off of oil until it's gone as a result, so for short term profits big oil is dooming the global economy to collapse.

How does this happen?  It speaks to the power of corruption.

It's the way the world works.  We could also talk about how the publishers would rather litigate and implement draconian DRM scheme rather than accept extinction in a digital world (not unlike the Malon trash guy).

Yeah, that's why it doesn't work as an analogy. For the record though, in the instances where something has happened on a small scale, such as the great smog of 52 in London (which resulted in nearly 4000 deaths), we've very quickly moved to resolve the issue. In fact the great smog led directly to the Clean Air Act of 1956, which very quickly led to great improvements in the smog levels around London. So yes, in the past we have actually acted in the very way the crew of Voyager suggested the Malon should.

Stop Posting stuff from 2 episodes ago. Move to a new topic!

I need to put this up before i forget. What about "Mortal Coil"? This is gonna be Good....

It gets a bit like that, but a healthy discussion should always be celebrated.

I'll cover "Mortal Coil" later tonight.

[AricwithanA]

Uh, no we can't, it's not economically efficient. Unless we can harvest more energy than we put in, i.e. generating a net increase in energy, then it's not efficient, an no business is going to do it. Yes there is a lot of corruption, yes there is a lot of potential for abuse, no this has nothing to do with the decision that Malon captain made. Let me state it again.

He could take Voyager's technology, "promise" to stop dumping in the void, and do 1 of 2 things:
1) sell the technology to an environmental group/government that is interested in removing the need to dispose of the toxic waste.
2) sell the technology to the disposal industry so they can bury it to keep their empire.

In both cases he wins, he profits personally, and there's nothing to stop him from dumping back in the void if he chooses the second option. If he'd "promised" to stop, then Janeway would have likely taken his word for it, and he could have taken them through the wormhole (or whatever they called it) without Voyager feeling the need to destroy it. That does depend on his acting, but it's hardly implausible that he could have convinced Voyager to not destroy the wormhole. Then once Voyager is safely on its way he can go back to doing what he was doing before, only that much richer simply because he'd be able to get paid off by the toxic waste industry. Or he could retire and sell the technology to the Malon government. Or he could even start his own business purifying waste. In every scenario he personally profits, which was the "reason" he didn't want the technology. Not because he didn't think it would work, he did. Not because he had some ideological problem with recycling, he accepted a life threatening job to dispose of the waste, even knowing that he would likely die of Theta radiation poisoning. He only didn't want to take it because it would threaten his job, i.e. his money. And to top it all off, eventually someone is going to come up with a way of recycling the toxic waste, and then he'll be out of a job anyway, except he wouldn't have gotten the payout.

Yeah, that's why it doesn't work as an analogy. For the record though, in the instances where something has happened on a small scale, such as the great smog of 52 in London (which resulted in nearly 4000 deaths), we've very quickly moved to resolve the issue. In fact the great smog led directly to the Clean Air Act of 1956, which very quickly led to great improvements in the smog levels around London. So yes, in the past we have actually acted in the very way the crew of Voyager suggested the Malon should.

For the sake of Hnewberry, I'll just let this drop and let you think you are correct.  I know better than try and debate with specific individuals, because they are always right, even when they are wrong.

You still can not see the point of things here.  OF COURSE we see problems with the actions the Malon had.  That IS THE POINT.  The episode is exploring a FLAW OF HUMANITY, a flaw that holds us back as a species.  There are plenty examples that show this flaw in humanity, the list is long but there is no use just listing them because of evidence so far, you won't accept them.  I won't pick your stuff apart either for the same reasons.  While yes, the one or two reasons for him not taking the tech is shallow, but, that is what?  A few min screen time to try and reduce an entire species workings into a couple lines of script?  Come on dude.  Look around you, look at humans and you will find the exact same mentality all around us. If you can't see it, all well, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I love science fiction because it explores the human condition, our flaws (usually in aliens) and our greater aspects (starfleet people).  So to really argue over this means you are missing the point of this as a whole.

Anyway, no more for me.  You will respond I'm sure, I'm wrong you are right.  Think that if you need to, I know the truth and that is all that matters. 

Hnewberry, have fun and I wasn't discussing the good or bad of an episode but the logic behind the actions taken when seen from a larger perspective.  You can have your thread back.

[Jon]

Stop Posting stuff from 2 episodes ago. Move to a new topic!

I need to put this up before i forget. What about "Mortal Coil"? This is gonna be Good....

Please note, you don't own the thread, as long as it stays broadly on topic and within the board guidlines, people can contribute in their own way.

For the sake of Hnewberry, I'll just let this drop and let you think you are correct.  I know better than try and debate with specific individuals, because they are always right, even when they are wrong.

You still can not see the point of things here.  OF COURSE we see problems with the actions the Malon had.  That IS THE POINT.  The episode is exploring a FLAW OF HUMANITY, a flaw that holds us back as a species.  There are plenty examples that show this flaw in humanity, the list is long but there is no use just listing them because of evidence so far, you won't accept them.  I won't pick your stuff apart either for the same reasons.  While yes, the one or two reasons for him not taking the tech is shallow, but, that is what?  A few min screen time to try and reduce an entire species workings into a couple lines of script?  Come on dude.  Look around you, look at humans and you will find the exact same mentality all around us. If you can't see it, all well, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I love science fiction because it explores the human condition, our flaws (usually in aliens) and our greater aspects (starfleet people).  So to really argue over this means you are missing the point of this as a whole.

Anyway, no more for me.  You will respond I'm sure, I'm wrong you are right.  Think that if you need to, I know the truth and that is all that matters. 

Hnewberry, have fun and I wasn't discussing the good or bad of an episode but the logic behind the actions taken when seen from a larger perspective.  You can have your thread back.

Aric is right I think here.

The point of the episode (in my view) was to highlight the mentality of the Malon's and to show it as anlogous to how we are today.

[Black Patriot]

Aric is right I think here.

The point of the episode (in my view) was to highlight the mentality of the Malon's and to show it as analogous to how we are today.

That was almost certainly the intention of the episode, but it failed completely because of the reasons I've specified. It isn't an analogy that works today (it certainly may have at some point in our history), we don't have some mystical technology that can magically clean up the environment, or drastically reduce our energy usage, which is exactly what the episode was about. If advanced aliens came to Earth now, or one gifted genius developed advanced technology, and we rejected them because it would upset the status quo, then it would be an appropriate analogy, but that hasn't happened. Every time someone has come up with a way of benefiting society, as well as themselves, it has been embraced. Maybe not quickly, but it has always happened.

This isn't me being stubborn. If AricwithanA's point is valid then he should be able to name 3 situations in our history where something beneficial, which was recognized at the time as being beneficial, was rejected because it would upset the status quo. I would also ask for relatively recent examples, but I'll take whatever I can get.

For the sake of Hnewberry, I'll just let this drop and let you think you are correct.  I know better than try and debate with specific individuals, because they are always right, even when they are wrong.

ad hominem

I'll cover "Mortal Coil" later tonight.

Scratch that, got side tracked with other things. I'll probably get to this tomorrow morning. Probably.

[Jon Deane]

The only reason we don't have better sources of energy is because big oil is obstructing research into alternative fuels.  They are working to obstruct funding for other groups and do you really think that their own "research" is unbiased?

[Black Patriot]

I've just had a thought. I think that AricwithanA and I aren't actually on either side of the same argument, I think we've somehow ended up arguing from two distinct conflicts. It comes down to a key word we've both been using.

AricwithanA says that the Malon captain provides an analogy for modern day humanity, and how we can put the status quo above the progression of society.
I argue that the Malon captain provides a flawed analogy because such an event hasn't occurred in recent human memory (I'm sure it has happened, but I doubt it's has since say the introduction of Star Trek)

The common point between both of these positions is the word analogy. Now analogy has a fairly strict definition, in so far that an analogy is used to equate a situation to another situation, one that is more understandable. Analogies are used often in Star Trek, almost always as a way of translating a long string of technobabble into a explanation that the average TV viewer can understand (see Parallax, the analogy works until it's taken literally).

Now in this case I believe that we might have mixed up our terms. For an analogy to work the comparison has to be roughly equal, it can be somewhat inaccurate, such as downplaying complexity, but the fundamental points of both sides of the analogy must be equal. Here's where the problem occurs. The Malon captain doesn't provide an analogy to modern humanity, precisely because such an event hasn't occurred recently. For it to work as an analogy it would need to reference something that had happened recently (think the fanatically religious suicide bombers in "Chosen Realm", an analogy for modern fundamentalists) or does still happen.

However the Malon captain does provide a metaphor against placing the comfort of the status quo above the change that scientific progress can bring. It works fine as a metaphor, but it fails as an analogy. That's the reason we've been going back and forth over the same points, not because we actually disagree, but because of a slight miscommunication.

The only reason we don't have better sources of energy is because big oil is obstructing research into alternative fuels.  They are working to obstruct funding for other groups and do you really think that their own "research" is unbiased?

My point still stands, we're not talking about Voyager offering the possibility of a solution at some point in the future, with a risk that it might never happen, such as what happens with research. We're talking about a situation where Voyager has the technology, it works, and they're willing to freely give it to the Malon. Completely different situations. I would agree that oil companies do have a stake in maintaining the status quo, they can't do so forever, and the larger a conspiracy the harder it is to contain. Think about how big the oil industry is, and how big the alternative energy research body is. Now how likely is it that one small group (the people making all the money) would be able to hold sway over every single person that'd need to be involved to cover such a conspiracy up? Not very likely, and not for very long in any case.