Reman Rapier

[Maxi]

 Where I wrote: "the klingon and romulan empires are in shape to wage war against anyone", obviously I meant: the klingon and romulan empires aren't in shape to wage war against anyone"...can be listened in the episode.

[Maxi]

Shock Troops is a general term for the masses of ground troops that are first deployed, to shock the enemy with a large number of exendable soldiers. Riker even calls them "cannon fodder", so from the context it's pretty clear that the Romulans didn't think that much of the Remans, and were only really using them because it was convenient. Now this by itself doesn't preclude the possibility of Reman military ships, but looking at it from the Romulan point of view, would you let a race of people that you've subjugated for centuries, and are now using as cheap throwaway soldiers, have control of powerful military ships? Especially against an enemy (the Dominion) that has shown no hesitation towards making deals with species in exchange for "control" over territories. The risk of a Reman alliance with the Dominion would be too great, at least if the Remans were under the control of Romulan field commanders, and were transported on Romulan ships, then the Romulans would have a measure of control, the Remans would never be able to build up a central control network (at least not a very effective one) and they wouldn't have direct access to ships, making any attempted coup very difficult. It was only when the Remans had the alliance of key Romulan Senators and Admirals that they were able to mount a coup.

I think the evidence for and against the Scimitar being a Reman ship is strong, it's unlikely that the Romulans would allow the Remans to control any military vessels, let alone one as powerful and destructive as the Scimitar, and it's equally unlikely that the Remans would have the knowledge or ability to build the Scimitar in secret. At the same time the Scimitar is different from nearly every other Romulan vessel ever seen, and it does seem to be outfitted for Remans, though there's no telling how long that sort of conversion would take, if you had a dedicated work force (which we can assume Shinzon had) then converting all the controls in a starship, even one as large as the Scimitar, wouldn't take that long.

As for the Tal'Shiar, I think their weakening was a political one, not a military one. The Tal'Shiar isn't really supposed to have ships, they can take control of Romulan Fleet ships, but they're not really meant to have their own dedicated fleet, so the revelation of such a fleet, as well as their failure was probably enough to do serious damage to the standing of the Tal'Shiar in the Senate.

I'm agree when you say "when the Remans had the alliance of key Romulan Senators and Admirals that they were able to mount a coup". However I don't believe in a plot masterminded by Romulan military, instead the eagerness of power and revenge against Federation from these key figures makes them cooperate with Shinzon.

... yes, the point is remans were ground troops, and probably were deployed by warbirds commanded by romulans. Their resouces were needed on the ground, so I don't think romulans were worried by that. Tal'Shiar was the responsible to spy and prevent plots, but after the failed attack on the Founder planet many agents got killed. (That operation was carried by spy agencies on their own. It's plausible to think the 10 wardbirds were operated by tal'shiar agents). With their capacity disrupted during the war, and the loses...


We can argue forever suposing things. The movie portraits what we know no more nor less,  but The Official StarTrek guide describes Scimitar as reman ship, so I think there's no more gap to discuss that.

The Scimitar, a product of Reman engineering, served as both Shinzon's warship and as a massive, thaleron-radiation-based weapon.

The vessel combines the clean lines of the traditional Romulan warbird with unique weaponry and styling. It is nearly twice as large as the Enterprise-E and can fire weapons while cloaked.

Armed with 52 disruptor banks, 27 photon torpedo bays, and equipped with primary and secondary phased shields, Scimitar is a formidable predator.

Along with a massive weapons array, the ship can "transform" itself into a thalaron weapon, a weapon that uses thalaron radiation to wipe out life on the genetic level. Shinzon planned to take the Scimitar to Sector 001 and use the weapon to wipe out Earth, until Picard and the Enterprise-E intervened.

Before the vessel was destroyed, it managed to survive both a head-on collision with Enterprise and the subsequent sheering away from the starship


About remans:

Humanoid, light-sensitive native species of Remus, the sister planet to Romulus, who evolved in their world's dark-side hemisphere and have largely remained subjugated by their more powerful neighbors. They've also been kept apart from the Empire's politics and military command. As fierce and towering foot soldiers, however, Remans won numerous battles during the Dominion War under Shinzon, a covert human clone of Starfleet's Jean-Luc Picard who was abandoned with them. They later made up the bulk of his fighting force during his short-lived takeover of the Romulan Star Empire and failed attack on the Enterprise-E in a bid to conquer Earth.

[MajorD]

"Often" don't means to be a requisite. Wiki states those kind of troops suffer high casualties and for that reason rusians used often prison inmates, and also states that kind of troops may have heavy weapons at their disposal.

The Romulans have shock troops, shock troops are expected to die fast, the Romulans have lots of slaves, people don't value the lives of slaves as highly as "real" people's lives--Romulans decide to let Remans die in the place of real people. Not all Russian shock troops being criminals only means the remaining Romulan Empire shock troops will be dishonored, disfavored, and criminal Romulans along side the slaves, who themselves will not necessarily all be Remans. There should be Romulan and alien slaves--that would be very Roman--unless it's more like slavery in America, where non-black slaves are a Shinzon level rarity.

'Often' means the majority of the time. Even the Russians didn't have enough criminals to fill every unit with criminals. The kind of weapons are only a matter of mission requirements, and have nothing to do with the value of the men. In this case, the mission is very important, the foot soldiers are disposable mobile targets.

No mighty fleet for romulans. They can't protect all its space at the same time and that leaves room for remans.

Or, they're so paranoid and obsessive, they've shaped their entire military and society around the one border, to the point they've actually drawn the border on the floor of their senate so it is always in sight. Either way, the end result is a military which is not big enough, in actuality, or because they're nuts.

Romulan lose a ship.
Romulans barelly are seen but their loses are dialogued.

I was talking about quantifiable losses, none of those examples put the damage into any sort of perspective. Except the very vague exception statement that says the Federation is left strongest in the Alliance and could invade Dominion space, while the other two can't.

As for the Tal'Shiar, I think their weakening was a political one, not a military one. The Tal'Shiar isn't really supposed to have ships, they can take control of Romulan Fleet ships, but they're not really meant to have their own dedicated fleet, so the revelation of such a fleet, as well as their failure was probably enough to do serious damage to the standing of the Tal'Shiar in the Senate.

"The Die is Cast" is the single largest intelligence disaster ever. You're right, the ships being theirs, or not is really beside the point, losing them at all only makes things worse, and it's the loss of political leverage that is the real disaster.

The Obsidian order seems to have had everyone on their ships, including all their intelligence resources. In some ways that's very smart, it means their operations are extremely mobile, and difficult to physically dismantle. That would be true if they hadn't sent every single ship to the fake Founder homeworld.

Now the Scimitar is Romulan.

[Maxi]

Now the Scimitar is Romulan.

Good picture but..ummm...is not!   

Everyone is free to invent and adjust to his taste, but from a trekker point of view we can't discus canonical events, even if we think the script is flawed or bad. We can imagine why and how that is possible. But if the trademark says the Scimitar and the Scorpion fighters are reman enginered, then they are.   

There's only one Scimitar at the time of Nemesis, otherwise would be seen more than one sometime. It was a prototype as the USS Dauntless which was an alien ship and unique.

[Black Patriot]

Good picture but..ummm...is not!   

Everyone is free to invent and adjust to his taste, but from a trekker point of view we can't discus canonical events, even if we think the script is flawed or bad. We can imagine why and how that is possible. But if the trademark says the Scimitar and the Scorpion fighters are reman enginered, then they are.   

There's only one Scimitar at the time of Nemesis, otherwise would be seen more than one sometime. It was a prototype as the USS Dauntless which was an alien ship and unique.

Slight problem with that logic, it was never stated on screen, therefore not strictly speaking canon. It's the same as the Technical Manuals, they're not canon, but when they don't contradict canon (or basic logic) then they're given a fair bit of leeway. In this case I think it stretches logic beyond it's breaking point. Everything we learn about the Remans in Nemesis (after never really being mentioned before in the history of Trek) paints the picture of slave race, completely dominated by the Romulans, with no political power, and more importantly, no military power. Now it's possible, probable even, that there is some sort of Reman government, even if it's just a figurehead one designed to keep the Romulans in control, but the idea of the Remans being able to build a ship as powerful (it was more than a match for a Sovereign, that should tell you how powerful it was) and advanced (no one had made a deployable Thaleron weapon before) is simply absurd. Now I could totally believe it was a Tal'Shiar ship built as a last resort (or given the way the Tal'Shiar think, a first strike) weapon that was co-opted by Shinzon as soon as he found out about it, which we could presume was as soon as the rouge elements of the Tal'Shiar allied with him (there's no way the coup was a completely Navy affair, there had to be someone from the Tal'Shiar), but there's no way I could believe it's a Reman ship.

This all comes down to the script being bad (this is the root cause of almost all of the films failings), not enough thought was put into the narrative, there was no consideration to how the coup occurred, what events led to it, what sort of political relationship existed between the Romulans and Remans, and because of this we're left trying to fill in the gaps that shouldn't have been allowed in the film in the first place. It's Voyager and the first 2 seasons of Enterprise all over again.

Really it comes down to two options:

Option 1: The Remans, a slave race that's forced to work in labor camps mining Dilithium on their homeworld of Remus, under the cruel and watchful eyes of their Romulan oppressors, were able to build one of the most advanced ships in the Alpha and Beta quadrants, without the Romulan government figuring out what they were doing until the start of their coup.

or Option 2: The Scimitar was a top secret Romulan design, radically different (though still with some familiar design queues) to existing Romulan ships, that was built as a last resort/first strike by the Romulan military (likely the Tal'Shiar) that was placed under Shinzon's (and by extension the Reman's) command when he became Praetor.

Now which one seems more plausible?

[Maxi]

1. Remus is an occupied planet due to its proximity to a major power, Romulus. Remans benefit from the war in what their enemies are focused, from the incapacity of spionage, and from key members in the Romulan Empire to revolt against the Empire, being able to build the Scimitar, not necessarily in Remus. (Substitute Remus for Alderaan, Romulus by Coruscant, Remans by Rebels, and Tal'aura by Leia... If such script works for starwars should work for any space opera). Putting it in Trek then could talk about the liberation of Bajor from the Cardassian Union.

The Scimitar isn't the most advanced, simply is the most weaponized. It's a "supercarrier-class".


2. It's plausible...but why Romulan military, and population, would cooperate with an alien dictator, or letting some traitors to give him "the most advanced of their starships". (Well, in Nemesis romulan military is "vanished" because we only see "traitor" starships). However without strongness how Shinzon could claim Romulan Imperium, even with the suport of key members of the senate and military, and what's more important knowing the nature of romulans, why these key members didn't claim the imperium for themselves intead to surrender it to a human clon empowered by reman slaves, if this one hasn't something to menace them.


An argument used is also the bird shape of the Scimitar...

[Black Patriot]

Well Remus is an occupied planet because the Romulans decided to colonize Romulus after they left Vulcan, probably because they'd overpowered the Remans and noticed a nice M class planet right next door. Having Dilithium on Remus probably helped convince them it was a good move. There are a number of problems with your hypothesis, first the Tal'Shiar may have lost political capital and a lot of personnel, but they were hardly crippled or incompetent, so the idea that they'd stop all intelligence gathering on Remus is pretty absurd, especially given that Remus is right next to Romulus, pretty hard to hide a ship building facility right next to the Romulan Capital. Second, whilst I'm sure the Romulans did dedicate a lot of resources to gathering intelligence on the Dominion, I very much doubt that they'd pull enough resources away from Remus for the Remans to be able to build an advanced warship right under their nose. The Romulans are a naturally suspicious people, and they're certainly not going to be under the impression that they can suddenly trust a race that they've been enslaving for centuries just because there's a war going on.

Trying to argue that the Scimitar isn't an "advanced" ship is splitting hairs, it's obviously advanced enough to have an experimental weapon built into it's design, and it's more than a match for a Sovereign, one of the most advanced and powerful ships in the Federation fleet. To simply call it the most weaponized is being naive, it takes a lot of skill and engineering planning to make an effective warship, and the more weapons you try to strap on the more difficult it gets. There's a reason that most US Navy ships (or any countries Navy really) don't have hundreds of guns, most only have 2 or 3, because the extra time, expense, and difficulty in adding another gun isn't worth it most of the time. Furthermore the Scimitar is obviously very well designed, as it was able to utilize all it's weapons effectively (partly due to Shinzons tactical ability), hardly the calling card of simple ship that's been strapped with extra weapons.

If the Romulan Military (or rather enough of the Admirals) were behind Shinzon then I'm sure the population would fall in line. But even with that, there's no reason to assume that the general public ever knew that there was a non-Romulan Praetor, considering how much control Romulan intelligence must have on the communication systems on Romulus (and throughout the empire) it would hardly be difficult to shape public opinion with the news that there was a new Praetor, and that he was too busy fixing the mess of the previous Praetor (or whatever other excuse you can think of) to make a public appearance. I'm sure once Shinzon had come back triumphant from destroying the Federation, as was his original plan, the Romulan people would probably be willing to overlook the fact that he wasn't Romulan, at least he wasn't Reman. Either that or the military was planning on getting rid of him once the Federation was destroyed, which fits pretty well with how Romulans seem to deal with governments they don't like.

Yeah, putting a picture of a bat next to the Scimitar is cute, but you can find plenty of pictures of birds that show the same wing design, and there's a reason for that, it's the most efficient shape for a large animal (i.e. not an insect) to achieve flight in Earth's atmosphere. I'm not saying that there wasn't some bat influence in the Scimitar, just that it's hardly exclusive to bats. For example

[TonyKirk]

I lol'd at that letter in place of the pic you were trying to show.  Nice bit of code there by that site admin. 

[Maxi]

I was wrong in something, the involvement from a Romulan fleet is indeed a key element. I confused Surak with an unknown commander. But neither Shinzon is a puppet nor Scimitar is romulan. And to end this no-sense arguing I went to the movie and transcribe the dialog.


First Scene: Romulan Senate

Unidentified commander: "Senators consider the oportunity for the Empire. At least the destinies of the planets Romulus and Remus will be united. Shinzon of Remus offers us a chance to make ourselves stronguer than ever, would be madness to reject it. I beg you not to let prejudice and politics interfere with this aliance.
By joinning Shinzon's forces with ours, not even the Federation will be able to stand in our way...

Praetor: "Enough! The decission is made. The military does not dictate policy on Romulus. The senate has considered Shinzon proposal and reject it. He and his followers will be met with force and sendt back to their black rock. Do I make myself clear?"

Unidentified commanders: "Yes, sir"

(These leave the hall and senator Tal'aura excuses herself to leave the hall too.)


Cut scene 2: Romulan Capitol

(walking for corridors)

Suran: Fleet commanders are nervous. They've agreed to remain at the...(unclear)...and await his orders but they're anxious to know what's going on."

Donatra: "I don't blame them. We can't keep them in the dark forever."

(Appears from a dark corridor the Reman Viceroy)

Viceroy: "But in the darkness there's strenght. Don't you agree?"

(Conference hall with a huge romulan symbol, shinzon with other romulans)

Shinzon: "Consider it, the great symbol of the Empire. But the bird-of-prey holds two planets, Romulus and Remus. Their destinies conjoined...yet, for generations, one of these planets has been whithout a voice. We will be silent no longuer.

Join us commanders (to Suran and Donatra)
Where's the position of the fleet?"

Suran: "They're holding position. They'll obey, praetor"

Shinzon: "We must return their allegiance or our great mission will be stranded before it can draw breath."

Donatra: "They support your intentions sir, but they require evidence of your...what shall we say...sincerity."

Shinzon: "And they'll have it.
Tell the fleet that the days of negotiation and diplomacy are over. The mighty Federation will fall before us, as I promised you. The time we have dreamed of is at hand, the time of conquest. 
Behead the dragon and it won't strike back."

Donatra: "How many warbirds will you need to slay the dragon?"

Shinzon: "You don't aprove of my oratory?"

Donatra: "Pretty words are of little use in battle."

Shinzon: "In any event, I will need no warbirds."

Suran: "You have the fleet at your disposal. They supported the coup. They'll follow you."

Shinzon: "The Scimitar will serve my needs."

Suran: "Surely..."

Shinzon: "I came this far alone! (louding his voice)(relaxes)...we came this far alone. We require no assistance from the fleet. Now leave me. " (people leaves)
Are we prepared? (to Viceroy)

Viceroy: "Yes, preator"

Shinzon: "So many years for this moment".


Enterprise - Briefing room Scene
 
Data first talks about how Remus orbits and that Remans live in the dark side.

Data: "Almost nothing is known of the Reman homeworld. Although intelligence scans have proven Dilhitium mining and heavy weapons construction. The Remans themselves are considered an undesirable caste at hierarchy of the Empire."

Riker: "But they also have a reputation to be formidable warriors. In the Dominion War Reman troops were used as shock troops at every final days."

Picard: "Cannon fodder"

(then talk about the new praetor skills and that he must have the cooperation of Praetors' fleet because the fleet of the Praetor is its force and couldn't be overthrown without it.)


Scimitar - Lunch with Picard Scene

(first they talk about picard life and why Shinzon was created to infiltate Federation, until a govement change make Romulans lose interest)

Picard: "How you ended on Remus?"

Shinzon: "They send me there to die. Not that it bothered as I was no longuer part of their plans against the Federation. In those terrible depht lived only the damned toguether with the Reman slaves. I was condemned to an existence of uneasing labour and starvation under the brutal heel of the Romulan guards." (he explains that a Reman felt compasion for him and defended from guards, and 'found' his Reman 'brothers' there)

Picard: "This is all to liberate the Remans?"

Shinzon: "That is the single thought behind everything I've done. From building the Scimitar at a secret base to assemble my army, finally comming to Romulus in force.
I knew they'd never gave us freedom, I would have to take it!"

(Picard tells him about the numbers of deaths, and Shinzon agrees and says it will make Romulans understand why peace is valuable. Keep talking about peace.)


Only Donatra express regret and changes sides.

First in a scene with Surak where she ask him if he's agree with mass murdering, to get his hands dirty of blood, and having to assume the consequences of such act all Romulans for long time.

Later, joinning to the battle with two warbirds, the Valdore and another. When Scimitar is defeated Donatra hails the Enterprise to tell them they've won at leas a friend, and Picard responds he expects no to be the last.

End


It's obvious Romulans inspire in the Roman Empire. So if romulans are romans and remans are mostly slaves or gladiators, then Shinzon is Spartakus. 

[Black Patriot]

Suran: Fleet commanders are nervous. They've agreed to remain at the...(unclear)...and await his orders but they're anxious to know what's going on."

Donatra: "I don't blame them. We can't keep them in the dark forever."

(Appears from a dark corridor the Reman Viceroy)

Viceroy: "But in the darkness there's strength. Don't you agree?"

From the context it's clear that they were misleading the fleet on the nature of the coup, as I suspected, and it's very likely that all the fleet knows is that there's a new Praetor, and that they're willing to go along with this new regime only as long as the Praetor fulfills his side of the bargain (i.e. crippling the Federation with the Scimitar).

Data: "Almost nothing is known of the Reman homeworld. Although intelligence scans have proven Dilhitium mining and heavy weapons construction. The Remans themselves are considered an undesirable caste at hierarchy of the Empire."

Riker: "But they also have a reputation to be formidable warriors. In the Dominion War Reman troops were used as shock troops at every final days."

Picard: "Cannon fodder"

Ask anyone working in an assembly line at a car factory to design you a new car and they'll look at you like you're an idiot. Just because the build the weapons doesn't mean they have any shipbuilding ability, and this still doesn't overcome the problem of the complete intelligence failure that would be needed for the Scimitar to be Reman.

Shinzon: "That is the single thought behind everything I've done. From building the Scimitar at a secret base to assemble my army, finally coming to Romulus in force.
I knew they'd never gave us freedom, I would have to take it!"

It's a nice thought, but he didn't march on Romulus with an army of Remans, we know this because the Romulan fleet was completely in the dark as to the nature of the coup. If there had been a Reman revolt you can bet the fleet would have been rushing back to Romulus to smash them into a billion pieces. Add to the fact that we saw, at the opening of the movie no less, the Romulan conspirators that took part in the assassination of the Senate, so we know that there was no uprising, just a quite knife in the back to the current government, which puts everything Shinzon said into question. Also note that he didn't say that the Remans built the Scimitar, just that he was involved with it and that it was built in secret, which still allows for it to be a Romulan ship that Shinzon was given so he could fulfill his part of the bargain with the rouge admirals.

Also, you haven't really responded to what I wrote, you just picked some quotes from the film that sort of sound like they confirm your position, but they don't, if anything they strengthen mine, as they show that the fleet was in the dark about the coup, that Shinzon lied to Picard (given that he later tried to suck out all of Picard's blood I fail to see how anything Shinzon said in the film could be taken at face value), and that the Remans were used as a slave race to mine Dilithium and work in assembly lines (it has to be assembly lines, they're the most efficient means of mass production short of replication, and if they could replicate whole weapons then they wouldn't need the Remans to build them).

[Maxi]

"I picked a few quotes"...well, that's the film and just a film, and there isn't much more dialogue about this matter...as simpy as that. They could say the Remans are the ugly parent of a Betazoid and we would have to agree. ST makers were who wrote the history and don't had to bother to give us extended explanations. You may choose to ignore Shinzon dialogue, or take it as fake...well that's a personal point of view as it is my own.


About the fleet are they having only a fleet or more than one? is the film when refering to the fleet talking about all Romulan starships or not? Picard talks about Praetor's fleet...is a "pretorian guard" like fleet, guarding Romulus surroundings and the Praetor himself, which is my personal opinion since Romulans inspire in ancient Rome, or i'm wrong and  isn't? That could explain the apparition of the Valdor class after  and not during the Dominion War, as part of an special force. Anyway the technologic evolution is perfectly plausible for me too.


About the fleet in the dark...I could argue that these words don't mean "dark"...as missguiding information but physically being at the dark side of Remus for example (someone could transcribe and post the part I typed as unclear), or being "dark" about what will happen and what to do from now on.

About the slavement of Remans we can't tell if ALL Remans live in the depht of the mines with the damned or ONLY those who are slaves. The film says UNDESIRED CASTE AT HIERARCHY, the relation Romulan-Reman is slavement or instead apartheid? which option you preffer is personal opinion as it's mine. If we chose slavement that doesn't means to live with a chain on the ankle... as in the ancient Rome may exist grades of slavement and grades of citizenship.


"Senators consider the oportunity for the Empire. At least the destinies of the planets Romulus and Remus will be united. Shinzon of Remus offers us a chance to make ourselves stronguer than ever, would be madness to reject it. I beg you not to let prejudice and politics interfere with this aliance.
By joinning Shinzon's forces with ours, not even the Federation will be able to stand in our way...
"That is the single thought behind everything I've done. From building the Scimitar at a secret base to assemble my army, finally comming to Romulus in force.
I knew they'd never gave us freedom, I would have to take it!"
For me that's clear enought to prove it. I have no reason to doubt of that dialogue. Logic is irrelevant.
 

[Black Patriot]

You're right, there isn't much dialogue on this, which is a fault with the script. That doesn't change the fact that all of the quotes still support my theory, so posting them didn't help your case.

About the fleet are they having only a fleet or more than one? is the film when refering to the fleet talking about all Romulan starships or not? Picard talks about Praetor's fleet...is a "pretorian guard" like fleet, guarding Romulus surroundings and the Praetor himself, which is my personal opinion since Romulans inspire in ancient Rome, or i'm wrong and  isn't? That could explain the apparition of the Valdor class after  and not during the Dominion War, as part of an special force. Anyway the technologic evolution is perfectly plausible for me too.

If Shinzon is Praetor then the fleet is the whole Romulan fleet (with the possible exception of the Tal'Shiar, though with their loss in "The Die is Cast" it's unlikely they'd have the political capital to rebuild their fleet), as the Praetor is the head of the Romulan Senate and the commander in chief of the armed forces. So this is very much the Romulan flee they're talking about, with Romulan ships and Romulan crews.

About the fleet in the dark...I could argue that these words don't mean "dark"...as missguiding information but physically being at the dark side of Remus for example (someone could transcribe and post the part I typed as unclear), or being "dark" about what will happen and what to do from now on.

That's a nice though, but the context is clear, the fleet is being mislead in some fashion as to the change in government, and their support of the new government is contingent on the new Praetor following up on his promise of crippling the Federation. There's never been any other reference to "dark" as a side, unlike Star Wars there isn't a "light" and "dark" alignment to the universe, so whilst it may partially explain the dialogue, it still doesn't fit with Star Trek in general.

About the slavement of Remans we can't tell if ALL Remans live in the depht of the mines with the damned or ONLY those who are slaves. The film says UNDESIRED CASTE AT HIERARCHY, the relation Romulan-Reman is slavement or instead apartheid? which option you preffer is personal opinion as it's mine. If we chose slavement that doesn't means to live with a chain on the ankle... as in the ancient Rome may exist grades of slavement and grades of citizenship.

Except the only way for a slave in Ancient Rome to regain the citizenship was if they were originally a citizen and were taken as a slave and later freed, that doesn't apply to the Remans, they're a different species, and given how xenophobic the Romulans can be it'd hardly be a surprise if they never afforded Remans equal status regardless of personal merit. Even if we accept that not all Remans are slave laborers, they're still a subservient race, and the Romulans would be absolutely crazy to not keep an eye on them.

As before, Shinzon's comments are completely suspect, as we saw at the start of the film that he did not march on Romulus with an army, there was no fighting (even Federation intelligence would have found out about a Reman uprising), just a swift political assassination and the installation of a new government, headed by Shinzon. Keep in mind that he indicated that he had nothing but hope for peace with the Federation, and that his next act was to kidnap Picard to perform a lethal medical procedure so he could live long enough to attack the Federation with his weapon of mass destruction. Given all that, how can we possibly say that Shinzon is a reliable source of information. Also remember that he was telling this to Picard, the man he was going to murder not a few hours later, and he knew it at the time.

And above all else, you still haven't addressed the critical flaw in your theory, that for the Scimitar to be Reman there would need to be a massive intelligence failure by the Romulans. A huge ship containing an experimental weapon, armed to the teeth, was built without anyone Romulans noticing? I don't think so.