Reman Rapier

[MajorD]

More than the ship, I find the description interesting.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150411532194810.423026.349086809809&type=1

Reman Rapier: As a rising power within the Romulan political landscape the Remans will play an important role in Excalibur. This is the Rapier, a smaller Reman ship designed for long range transport and scouting missions. The Reman design has been textured by Jonny (JB06) to a high level of detail, with every part of the intricate hull pattern painted by hand! The ship was designed by Matt Hooker and modelled by Luiz Cordova.

That's going to have to be the best explanation ever for the Remans not to have been marginalized even further, after Shinzon.

[Maxi]

It's not stated in the movies that remans local power decline after Shinzon's death. Afterall romulan govement also is in chaos afer wipping out all the senate members. I bet for a rising for remans power while a cut down in romulan's one, matching each other. No more slavement for reman "bats".   


Also never was explained anything about remans before. Since romulans were original from Vulcan, I guess remans are the original beings from romulan-remulan solar system.

[MajorD]

That's true. I just can't help thinking, Reman, oppression would worsen after Nemesis. The Romulans would have the Remans as a truthful scapegoat for the current problems.

I never though of this before, perhaps the Romulan military forms a military government. Not in the style of the books, where what's-her-name becomes Empress, and keeps the senate. The military would have this chance directly due to the Remans taking over and killing the government off. The Remans did this with some military backing. Given all that, the military could reward the Remans with freedom.

Actually, it may be even simpler. Shinzon could have freed the Remans during his rain, and have given Remus a seat in the senate. We have no idea how long it was, and it should have been the very first thing he did once he took over. That only requires the next Emperor to keep the status quo, rather than taint himself by taking an action.  The reason for not making them a scapegoat would be a matter of honorable debt, since getting into power required the Remans.

I hadn't really thought about the length of Shinzon's rain. Was it mentioned in the movie? All I remember is Picard or Riker mentioning that Shinzon was new, indicating his becoming leader was relatively recent, but we don't know how recent. Maybe, the Scimitar was actually commissioned after Shinzon gained power?

[Aresius]

That's true. I just can't help thinking, Reman, oppression would worsen after Nemesis. The Romulans would have the Remans as a truthful scapegoat for the current problems.

I'd agree here. From the backflashes that Shinzon 'related' to Picard about living in the mines, the Romulans never were friendly to the Remans, so afte such an unfavourable behaviour and usurping, it's only reasonable that the Romulans retaliate harshly.

I never though of this before, perhaps the Romulan military forms a military government. Not in the style of the books, where what's-her-name becomes Empress, and keeps the senate. The military would have this chance directly due to the Remans taking over and killing the government off. The Remans did this with some military backing. Given all that, the military could reward the Remans with freedom.

According to the books, Tal'Aura (the one who smuggled the Thalaron-Generator to perish the former senate) immediately took leadership and received support by most military, while Donatra (the one who joined Picard during the Battle of the Bassen Rift) called for a revolt and eventually lead a seccesionist party that formed a separate Romulan State.
I find this nonsense. Even if we agree that Tal'Aura had most of the military on her side to do this stunt, we never saw her afterwards, so either she 'suddenly fell from the Emperors grace' and got stationed elsewhere, or Shinzon disposed of her (latter is more likely as she's a conspirator and thus better off dead and unable to speak uneasy truths).

Actually, it may be even simpler. Shinzon could have freed the Remans during his rain, and have given Remus a seat in the senate. We have no idea how long it was, and it should have been the very first thing he did once he took over. That only requires the next Emperor to keep the status quo, rather than taint himself by taking an action.  The reason for not making them a scapegoat would be a matter of honorable debt, since getting into power required the Remans.

True. But Romulans and honourable are to opposing terms. Besides, seeing the backflashes how the Romulan guards were treating the REmans, it's highly unlikely that the Romulan population would accept Reman leadership or even remotely Reman equality.

I hadn't really thought about the length of Shinzon's rain. Was it mentioned in the movie? All I remember is Picard or Riker mentioning that Shinzon was new, indicating his becoming leader was relatively recent, but we don't know how recent. Maybe, the Scimitar was actually commissioned after Shinzon gained power?

Then they really build ships extremely fast...

[Maxi]

I saw the movie again... in the movie is portrayed as if Shinzon was a forgotten and throwed away relic from the Tal'shiar conspirations, since Tal'shiar no longer exists after Dominion war. There in the mines with the rest of reman "slaves" he can gain the trust of remans and becomes a leader in Remus. Remans lead by Shinzon conspire against their oppresors, and build a fleet with the Scimitar as its flag ship. They (or Shinzon) also convince somehow two Romulan commanders (Donatra and Suran) and senator Tal'aura to help them to execute the plan, probably bribering them. Once the praetor and the senate are killed, the door gets opened for the reman backed Shinzon with the suport of the romulan "traitors" to become emperor aka praetor.

At this point we could figure that remans must had the means to subdue romulan army and to confront oppositors, since only with the traitors (a senator and two warbirds wouldn't be enough). In pursuit of revenge against Picard, Shinzon plans to attack Earth, leading to the end of reman coup d'etat on Romulus and Shinzon's career as praetor.

However that end don't implies a return to prior status quo. Could lead to a war reman-romulus, or to a cold war between both planets...but definitely don't leads to an enslavement of remans. Instead I think remans at that point got the sovereignity of Remus.

[MajorD]

According to the books, Tal'Aura (the one who smuggled the Thalaron-Generator to perish the former senate) immediately took leadership and received support by most military, while Donatra (the one who joined Picard during the Battle of the Bassen Rift) called for a revolt and eventually lead a seccesionist party that formed a separate Romulan State. I find this nonsense. Even if we agree that Tal'Aura had most of the military on her side to do this stunt, we never saw her afterwards, so either she 'suddenly fell from the Emperors grace' and got stationed elsewhere, or Shinzon disposed of her (latter is more likely as she's a conspirator and thus better off dead and unable to speak uneasy truths).

I think that sounds bad, too. It makes more sense for Shinzon getting the throne being the plan all along. That way Shinzon doesn't have to be magically handwaved into power, and the explanation can be as simple as the military gaining plausible deniability. "Who would put a slave on the throne!?" "As servants of the Empire we must stay out of this purely political issue!" All along, their plan could be to manipulate Shinzon from behind the scenes. I can even see that working, because Shinzon's hate was toward humanity and not Romulans. He was so focused on Earth and Picard, that he probably did everything the military wanted, while asking relatively little for himself.

True. But Romulans and honourable are to opposing terms.

Despite what seems like a back stabbing nature, I believe this is really how they treat enemies, and not each other. I like how in TOS the Romulans seemed driven mostly be duty, and its related honor, and I believe some of that survives into TNG. While any Romulan may be looking for leverage, I think they have to honor agreements, even if only to the letter. That would mean, if Shinzon agreed to help, and made freeing the Remans part of that deal, then the military would, at worst, not fight against that decision. That's exactly what I would have them do, if the military openly took over. I know it's not great reasoning, but I think it at least makes the Romulans interesting if that reasoning were used.

Besides, seeing the backflashes how the Romulan guards were treating the REmans, it's highly unlikely that the Romulan population would accept Reman leadership or even remotely Reman equality.

I completely agree, it's why I think the explanation for them having growing political influence has to be flawless.  If the explanation amounts to "a wizard did it", I'll be severely disappointed.

Then they really build ships extremely fast...

Yeah. I realized it after typing, that even one year would be too little time for a ship that big. I used to think that maybe the military had been building the ship for him the whole time, but I think it's more reasonable if it were being built regardless of Shinzon as part of the thalaron project. That way, Shinzon can take the project before interiors are installed, and have it fitted for Reman comfort.

[Remans] build a fleet with the Scimitar as its flag ship.

I don't see how this is remotely possible, for the Remans to have built and manned a fleet capable of taking on the Romulan fleet, let alone have a large enough army to fight a Romulan army. It's multiple worlds versus a single one. Even if much of the fleet has to stayed tied up with peripheral affairs, there should still be more than enough ships to put down a Reman uprising. 

If there were a Reman fleet in the movie, the Romulan fleet shouldnt' have existed anymore, not as an independent body, and Shinzon should have had escorts, just in case.

[Maxi]

I think that sounds bad, too. It makes more sense for Shinzon getting the throne being the plan all along. That way Shinzon doesn't have to be magically handwaved into power, and the explanation can be as simple as the military gaining plausible deniability. "Who would put a slave on the throne!?" "As servants of the Empire we must stay out of this purely political issue!" All along, their plan could be to manipulate Shinzon from behind the scenes. I can even see that working, because Shinzon's hate was toward humanity and not Romulans. He was so focused on Earth and Picard, that he probably did everything the military wanted, while asking relatively little for himself.

Despite what seems like a back stabbing nature, I believe this is really how they treat enemies, and not each other. I like how in TOS the Romulans seemed driven mostly be duty, and its related honor, and I believe some of that survives into TNG. While any Romulan may be looking for leverage, I think they have to honor agreements, even if only to the letter. That would mean, if Shinzon agreed to help, and made freeing the Remans part of that deal, then the military would, at worst, not fight against that decision. That's exactly what I would have them do, if the military openly took over. I know it's not great reasoning, but I think it at least makes the Romulans interesting if that reasoning were used.
I completely agree, it's why I think the explanation for them having growing political influence has to be flawless.  If the explanation amounts to "a wizard did it", I'll be severely disappointed.

Yeah. I realized it after typing, that even one year would be too little time for a ship that big. I used to think that maybe the military had been building the ship for him the whole time, but I think it's more reasonable if it were being built regardless of Shinzon as part of the thalaron project. That way, Shinzon can take the project before interiors are installed, and have it fitted for Reman comfort.

I don't see how this is remotely possible, for the Remans to have built and manned a fleet capable of taking on the Romulan fleet, let alone have a large enough army to fight a Romulan army. It's multiple worlds versus a single one. Even if much of the fleet has to stayed tied up with peripheral affairs, there should still be more than enough ships to put down a Reman uprising. 

If there were a Reman fleet in the movie, the Romulan fleet shouldnt' have existed anymore, not as an independent body, and Shinzon should have had escorts, just in case.

1. It was a reman revolt. Nor Shinzon nor remans were considered "one of them" by romulans.

2. It's a fact romulan army has its part in the conspiracy, but how huge is that part its a mistery. Judging by the movie this support is relative. As I said, 2 commanders and 1 senator.

3. I said remans build a fleet...well, they build the Scimitar and scorpion fighters for the occasion...but maybe they didn't have to....remans fought the Dominion war so they had acces to weaponery. The unique design of the ships is different than the romulan, so its plausible to say to be from reman origin.

4.However the story is developed through novels...it depends on what Excalibur team considers canon.

-Stardate2378 . Reman comander Xiomek. Federation mediates between Romulan factions. Remans assemble a fleet with abandoned ships and attack Romulus. Captain William T. Riker aboard the USS Titan ends the battle negotiating a treaty whereby Remus and all Remans were made protectorates of the Klingon Empire. Under the treaty, ships from the Klingon Defense Force were stationed throughout Romulan space, and the Remans were granted the right to settle on a continent on Romulus called Ehrie'fvil. (TTN novel: Taking Wing)

The plan fails due to fights between romulans and klingons. A backup plan is to resettle remans out of romulan space into Klingon space.  The moon of the new settlment is detroyed by a rogue romulan admiral (ST novel: Articles of the Federation)

-Stardate2385 . Romulan Empire merges again and Empress Donatra gives Colonel Xiomek a take on the Senate with citizenship awarded to all Remans. (Startrek Online plot)

[Mark]

You need to remember that the Tal Shiar was really decimated after their attack on the founder's homeworld, and while the organisation undoubtedly lived on the entire Romulan military structure would have been weakened. When the Dominion war arrived in the Alpha quadrant the Romulans were still licking their wounds, and when they were finally convinced to join the war they had to turn to the Remans for extra man power. This is really the moment where the genie was let out of the lamp because it started the chain of events that lead to Shinzon taking power in Nemesis.

At this stage the Remans have ships, men and are a minor military power. The Romulan political system has been almost entirely broken and so the Romulan military is focused on taking political power back on Romulus. The Romulan Senate and Military are both too busy to worry about putting down the Remans at this stage, and in fact they are both relatively keen to keep the Remans "on side" in the short term. So it is at this stage that there is opportunity for the Remans to establish a foothold away from the conflict and politics in the core Romulan system.

[MajorD]

3. I said remans build a fleet...well, they build the Scimitar and scorpion fighters for the occasion...but maybe they didn't have to....remans fought the Dominion war so they had acces to weaponery. The unique design of the ships is different than the romulan, so its plausible to say to be from reman origin.

There isn't time for them to have built the Scimitar after Shinzon gains power. Not unless several years pass between the senate murder and Picard's arrival.  Fighting in the war doesn't mean continued access to materials, either. We also have barely seen any Romulan ships, six in total, think, with the Valdore actually being a pretty close fit to the Scimitar is detailing. It also doesn't make sense for the Romulans to make ships to Reman specifications, except for the consoles.

The novels are pretty bad.

You need to remember that the Tal Shiar was really decimated after their attack on the founder's homeworld, and while the organisation undoubtedly lived on the entire Romulan military structure would have been weakened.

There's no way the Romulan military could have been weakened after the attack on the supposed Founder homeworld. The fleet sent was only 20 ships total, while during the Dominion War, the Federation and Klingons were using multiple fleets each of hundreds of ships. That makes 20 ships too few to matter, and it's less than the amount the Federation lost as Wolf 359, and which were replaced in a year. It was an intelligence agency operation, so no military personnel would have been involved, since the intelligence organizations have their own ships. Only the intelligence agencies are ever mentioned to have been weakened, and we know it wasn't harmful to operations, because the Romulans were still doing missions afterword, such as stealing the Prometheus.

 

When the Dominion war arrived in the Alpha quadrant the Romulans were still licking their wounds, and when they were finally convinced to join the war they had to turn to the Remans for extra man power. This is really the moment where the genie was let out of the lamp because it started the chain of events that lead to Shinzon taking power in Nemesis.

The Romulans being militarily weakened is never mentioned, nor is it mentioned why the Remans were used. The simplest explanation for using Remans would be the same reason to use slave and prisoner garrisons, and conscription. Force inflation, or low population of militarily useful citizens. Force inflation makes the most sense, unless you're going for a small Romulan Empire, like a Space Singapore/Sweden.

At this stage the Remans have ships, men and are a minor military power. The Romulan political system has been almost entirely broken and so the Romulan military is focused on taking political power back on Romulus. The Romulan Senate and Military are both too busy to worry about putting down the Remans at this stage, and in fact they are both relatively keen to keep the Remans "on side" in the short term. So it is at this stage that there is opportunity for the Remans to establish a foothold away from the conflict and politics in the core Romulan system.

That still leaves a gigantic leap of wizard waving to make it happen, on the level of underpants gnomes.

• Steal Underpants
• ???
• Profit

[Mark]

I've been working all evening so this will be short, don't take it personally

There isn't time for them to have built the Scimitar after Shinzon gains power. Not unless several years pass between the senate murder and Picard's arrival.  Fighting in the war doesn't mean continued access to materials, either. We also have barely seen any Romulan ships, six in total, think, with the Valdore actually being a pretty close fit to the Scimitar is detailing. It also doesn't make sense for the Romulans to make ships to Reman specifications, except for the consoles.

The novels are pretty bad.

You have said yourself in the past that the Scimitar was built, or at least completed, after the Dominion war. I think it is likely that the Scimitar was built in secret because it was such an immense weapon, however at the mere existence of the Scimitar shows that the Remans do have ship building technology and experience to some degree. We can surmise that they must have been able to build space craft of some kind for a fair amount of time, most likely transports and the like.

There's no way the Romulan military could have been weakened after the attack on the supposed Founder homeworld. The fleet sent was only 20 ships total, while during the Dominion War, the Federation and Klingons were using multiple fleets each of hundreds of ships. That makes 20 ships too few to matter, and it's less than the amount the Federation lost as Wolf 359, and which were replaced in a year. It was an intelligence agency operation, so no military personnel would have been involved, since the intelligence organizations have their own ships. Only the intelligence agencies are ever mentioned to have been weakened, and we know it wasn't harmful to operations, because the Romulans were still doing missions afterword, such as stealing the Prometheus.

Two things. Firstly we hear more than once that the Tal Shiar got "handed" by the dominion before the war even began - that was the founders plan from the beginning because they knew how important the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order were in their respective empires. The Tal Shiar was always much more than just an intelligence agency, it was held a great deal of political power within the military as a whole and in the actions of the empire in general. Losing the Tal Shiar put the Romulans on the back foot without any shadow of a doubt.

Secondly, the evidence we have from Nemesis shows that the Remans were treated very badly by the Romulans, yet we know that Shinzon was able to prove himself as a commander during the Dominion war. It seems clear that under normal circumstances the Romulan's would not be dragging their slaves from working in mines and putting them to work on a starship. From there we can connect the dots as to why this might be happening; the Romulan Empire needed more grunt.

I do take your point that the Remans would not have had time to build any kind of serious military force. Apart from a couple of Scimitar-Type vessels (we have to have them in the mix!) they will be restricted to much smaller vessels like the Rapier design you are referring to.

[John]

If I were Shinzon, and was planning a spot of Galactic conquest, I know I'd have a few different kinds of space ship up my sleeve.

[MajorD]

I've been working all evening so this will be short, don't take it personally

You have said yourself in the past that the Scimitar was built, or at least completed, after the Dominion war. I think it is likely that the Scimitar was built in secret because it was such an immense weapon, however at the mere existence of the Scimitar shows that the Remans do have ship building technology and experience to some degree. We can surmise that they must have been able to build space craft of some kind for a fair amount of time, most likely transports and the like.

We have no idea who built the ship, we only know Shinzon had it, and that it had the right consoles by the time Picard arrived. Having the Remans make it means handwaving a giant secret manufacturing facility into existence. Having the Romulans give Shinzon the ship as part of their support requires no extra explanation.

Two things. Firstly we hear more than once that the Tal Shiar got "handed" by the dominion before the war even began - that was the founders plan from the beginning because they knew how important the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order were in their respective empires. The Tal Shiar was always much more than just an intelligence agency, it was held a great deal of political power within the military as a whole and in the actions of the empire in general. Losing the Tal Shiar put the Romulans on the back foot without any shadow of a doubt.

Only intelligence wise. Romulan military strength and leadership would remain intact, as the Tal Shiar are not the Romulan military leadership, regardless of involvement. Memory Alpha mentions the Tal'shiar and Romulan military being at odds with each other, showing they are distinct groups. Neither the Romulan military, nor Cardassian military at any point is ever described as having taken a blow, or being weaker than usual.

Discrediting the intelligence agencies was useful because it would have made the respective nations less likely to uncover Dominion plots, and other political situations. Destroying their fleets means killing off a certain level of easy intelligence centered power projection. The former would actually go a long way in explaining the extreme risk taken in stealing the Prometheus.

Secondly, the evidence we have from Nemesis shows that the Remans were treated very badly by the Romulans, yet we know that Shinzon was able to prove himself as a commander during the Dominion war. It seems clear that under normal circumstances the Romulan's would not be dragging their slaves from working in mines and putting them to work on a starship. From there we can connect the dots as to why this might be happening; the Romulan Empire needed more grunt.

I do take your point that the Remans would not have had time to build any kind of serious military force. Apart from a couple of Scimitar-Type vessels (we have to have them in the mix!) they will be restricted to much smaller vessels like the Rapier design you are referring to.

Needing more bodies is all we know, but we don't know why. Plenty of nations use enlistment, and a bunch of ancient nations used slave armies. The Soviets used prisoner regiments in WWII.

The Romulans respect people who can keep promises, or maybe people who are right. After all, Picard gained the respect of a couple Romulan officers, and even inspired hope in them for peace. Shinzon was supposed to be a successful tactician, so it's no wonder he made a few friends with higher ups. To have gained enough support for coup speaks well of him. However, Romulans wanting him as leader strikes me as too much; Shinzon would have to be absurdly brilliant to gain that much support. That's why I think he was intended as a figurehead.

I actually like the Rapier as a first Reman designed and manufactured ship. It follows the Valdore in a blocky manner which seems appropriate. I wouldn't want to see more than one Scimitar though. Even with nine years, that seems way too soon for a Reman made Scimitar. It works with the idea of them making the first one, and they could have three by that time, including a repaired Scimitar, but you already know I don't buy that idea.

[Mark]

The Scimitar is clearly not a Romulan design, it is distinct even from the later Romulan ships like the Norexan in many ways. If you take a look in this slightly earlier script, amongst other sources(1,2), you will notice they refer to it as a "Reman Warbird":

Shinzon's magnificent Reman Warbird, the SCIMITAR, decloaks directly before the Enterprise.

If you want to believe that it was made by the Romulans then that's fine but it is not canon and IMO doesn't fit.

As far as the reasons for the Remans being pulled out of mining and put to work in the fleet, we are both engaged in speculation so there is no right or wrong. I would, however, argue that if Shinzon was able to find his way into command we are not just talking about some kind of conscription. Look at Shinzon's description of what the Romulans thought of him:

I was a slave.  And a monster. The only thing the Romulan guards hated more than the Remans was me.

If this person was a Romulan conscript he would be put in front of the Jem Hadar with nothing but a teaspoon to defend himself with. Meanwhile of the Remans he says:

But one man took pity on me: the man who became my Viceroy.  He taught me how to survive.  And in that dark place, where there was nothing of myself, I found my Reman brothers.

This doesn't sound like a man who was cut a break by the Romulans, if anything he is totally indebted to the Remans. I can't accept the idea that he would have ever been given command by the Romulans, which means that he was more than likely commanding a Reman ship and that brings us full circle.

[Maxi]

There isn't time for them to have built the Scimitar after Shinzon gains power. Not unless several years pass between the senate murder and Picard's arrival.  Fighting in the war doesn't mean continued access to materials, either. We also have barely seen any Romulan ships, six in total, think, with the Valdore actually being a pretty close fit to the Scimitar is detailing. It also doesn't make sense for the Romulans to make ships to Reman specifications, except for the consoles.

.

Well, in fact i presume it was before Shinzon gains power that was built the Scimitar, when the conspiration was forged. You got the Tal Shiar infiltrated by shapeshifters and anihilated at the Founders planet, the Empire focused in the war, the remans act pionere troops being able to sctockpile resources and weapons....

[MajorD]

The Scimitar is clearly not a Romulan design, it is distinct even from the later Romulan ships like the Norexan in many ways. If you take a look in this slightly earlier script, amongst other sources(1,2), you will notice they refer to it as a "Reman Warbird":

If you want to believe that it was made by the Romulans then that's fine but it is not canon and IMO doesn't fit.

The Scimitar being Reman made isn't canon either, it's never in the movie at any point, and makes far less sense than being Romulan due to it being a massive undertaking. It's not just a ship, it's a completely original weapon system, and the timing doesn't work out given the end of the Dominion War and date of Nemesis.

The ship has to look different because no normal design can apparently work for firing thalaron radiation. Otherwise a giant transformer wouldn't have been made, a D'Deridex with a deflector would have done.

As far as the reasons for the Remans being pulled out of mining and put to work in the fleet, we are both engaged in speculation so there is no right or wrong. I would, however, argue that if Shinzon was able to find his way into command we are not just talking about some kind of conscription. Look at Shinzon's description of what the Romulans thought of him:

If this person was a Romulan conscript he would be put in front of the Jem Hadar with nothing but a teaspoon to defend himself with. Meanwhile of the Remans he says:

This doesn't sound like a man who was cut a break by the Romulans, if anything he is totally indebted to the Remans. I can't accept the idea that he would have ever been given command by the Romulans, which means that he was more than likely commanding a Reman ship and that brings us full circle.

He doesn't need to have been cut a break, he only needs Romulans to have seen him as a useful tool to eliminating the council. Military service creates that opportunity to be seen and to act. Becoming leader of the slaves, still makes him a slave. Having Shinzon's take over be purely a Reman driven plot also doesn't explain how he got any Romulan help.

It also leaves a gaping hole of why the Romulan starfleet didn't send a fleet, cloaked, to wait out the Scimitar. The moment the Scimitar decloaked to greet Picard, it should have been vaporized. Especially if it was holding Romulus hostage. By having total, or at least majority backing by the Romulan fleet before the coup, that issue is eliminated. But, that isn't going to work, or make sense if it's the Remans going to the Romulans. The Remans revealing their plan would risk it far too much, but Romulans going to Remans doesn't have that risk.

Well, in fact i presume it was before Shinzon gains power that was built the Scimitar, when the conspiration was forged. You got the Tal Shiar infiltrated by shapeshifters and anihilated at the Founders planet, the Empire focused in the war, the remans act pionere troops being able to sctockpile resources and weapons....

Considering the time frame (2375-79), there are only four years between the end of the war and Nemesis; assuming the Remans made the ship, they definitely would have had to have started sooner.  However, the fastest build time we have is for the Mirror Universe Defiant, which was finished off in 1 month--it probably had a bit more leading up to that though, but we'll ignore that. Assuming the Volumetrics page is correct on the Scimitar's and Defiant's (120 m long) volumes, the Scimitar is 323 times greater in volume. On a pure volume based build rate, with a similar situation to the Mirror Universe build--which fits, because it was rebels with scrounged resources, building their ship at DS9, which is not a shipyard--the Scimitar should take 27 years to build. By comparison, using the same method, it takes 7 years to build a Galaxy class starship.

This doesn't even include the time it would take to design a ship and new weapon technology from scratch. Ten years could easily be added by each.

[Maxi]

The Romulans being militarily weakened is never mentioned, nor is it mentioned why the Remans were used. The simplest explanation for using Remans would be the same reason to use slave and prisoner garrisons, and conscription. Force inflation, or low population of militarily useful citizens. Force inflation makes the most sense, unless you're going for a small Romulan Empire, like a Space Singapore/Sweden.

Yes it is mentioned. According to ST: Nemesis, the Remans were deployed as shock troops during the Dominion War & gained a fearsome reputation in the process. "Shock troop" is diferent than "cannon meat" considering anyway that these units suffer heavy casualties.
Wiki: Shock troops or assault troops are formations created to lead an attack.

- WWI: "Shock troop" is a loose translation[ of the German word Stoßtrupp. Military units which contain assault troops are typically organized for mobility with the intention that they will penetrate through enemy defenses and attack into the enemy's vulnerable rear areas.

- WWII: Soviet Shock Armies were characterized by a higher allocation of army-level artillery units to break German defense positions by weight of fire, and often had heavy tank regiments or heavy self-propelled gun regiments to add additional direct fire support.



About USS Prometheus, it was stolen on 2374...at the same time of the non-agression pact with the Dominion.

The Scimitar being Reman made isn't canon either, it's never in the movie at any point, and makes far less sense than being Romulan due to it being a massive undertaking. It's not just a ship, it's a completely original weapon system, and the timing doesn't work out given the end of the Dominion War and date of Nemesis.

It's not disclosed how long remans conspirated...also isn't told remans were living "under arrest". At the time when were dragued to war against Dominion, the Romulan army was too busy getting destroyed in their starships ("In the Pale Moonlight"), and later when they were part of the fleet at Chin'toka. Their warbirds, while large, weren't well equipped to deal with Dominion ships. That's why in Nemesis we see the new warbirds that have been redesigned. Some people are brave enought to argue that newest warbirds as the Valdore have reman artwork influence and for that reason the color change.

[Mark]

The Scimitar being Reman made isn't canon either, it's never in the movie at any point, and makes far less sense than being Romulan due to it being a massive undertaking. It's not just a ship, it's a completely original weapon system, and the timing doesn't work out given the end of the Dominion War and date of Nemesis.

Again, there is really no evidence for the Scimitar being Romulan, while there is at least circumstantial evidence for it being Reman. (Why are there no Romulans on board? Why are the warp nacelles so completely different? Why is even the hull material different? Why is every interface and label written in Reman? Why are these things also the case for the shuttle compliment?) We also know that during production the crew's intention was that it was a Reman ship, from day one.

You can form you own opinions on this but that's all they are. We are not going to write a story which conforms to your view of trek canon, even against on-screen evidence.

He doesn't need to have been cut a break, he only needs Romulans to have seen him as a useful tool to eliminating the council. Military service creates that opportunity to be seen and to act. Becoming leader of the slaves, still makes him a slave. Having Shinzon's take over be purely a Reman driven plot also doesn't explain how he got any Romulan help...

...It also leaves a gaping hole of why the Romulan starfleet didn't send a fleet, cloaked, to wait out the Scimitar. The moment the Scimitar decloaked to greet Picard, it should have been vaporized. Especially if it was holding Romulus hostage.

Did you actually watch the film? Shinzon was Praetor, he won the Romulan military's support by promising to destroy Earth and wipe out the Federation... That was kinda the point of the film!

This doesn't even include the time it would take to design a ship and new weapon technology from scratch. Ten years could easily be added by each.

There is no evidence in canon that the ship design or weapon technology needed to be designed from scratch. As far as how long the ship took to build, its total conjecture to say it would take X, Y or Z years - given that many areas of it do not seem to be inhabitable and indeed large sections are dedicated to single chambers like the shuttle bay, there is plenty of room for estimation either way..

Now, given that I have answered your points several times over and we are now going round in circles, I'm going to leave you folks to it. Have fun!

[MajorD]

- WWII: Soviet Shock Armies were characterized by a higher allocation of army-level artillery units to break German defense positions by weight of fire, and often had heavy tank regiments or heavy self-propelled gun regiments to add additional direct fire support.[/i]

Wiki says Russian shock troops were made of slave squads, because such forces were assured extremely high casualties.

About USS Prometheus, it was stolen on 2374...at the same time of the non-agression pact with the Dominion.

It's not disclosed how long remans conspirated...also isn't told remans were living "under arrest". At the time when were dragued to war against Dominion, the Romulan army was too busy getting destroyed in their starships ("In the Pale Moonlight"), and later when they were part of the fleet at Chin'toka. Their warbirds, while large, weren't well equipped to deal with Dominion ships. That's why in Nemesis we see the new warbirds that have been redesigned. Some people are brave enought to argue that newest warbirds as the Valdore have reman artwork influence and for that reason the color change.

2374 is after "The Die is Cast", so I'm not seeing an issue.

Who were the Romulans fighting "In the Pale Moonlight"? It's been years since I've seen it. In the final battles, all the damage the D'deridex does and takes is completely inconclusive. The only conclusive scene is in TNG in "Tin Man", and the only scene with worth while hinting is the one where the three D'Deridexs get surrounded by the three Birds of Prey, and the Enterprise-D.

We don't know why we finally see new combat ships for the Romulans in Nemesis. It may be because of the Dominion War, but I think the timing is a little tight for that. At most, if they decided to make a new ship class on the first day of joining the war, they would have had six years to design, and build at least two examples of the ships. I think the design process has to have started before the Dominion war. That still means the ships could have been produced only after the war, although, I don't see any reason it has to be that new. I just like the idea of the Valdore fighting during the war.

[Maxi]

Wiki says Russian shock troops were made of slave squads, because such forces were assured extremely high casualties.

Read better:

During World War II the Red Army of the Soviet Union deployed five Shock armies. Many of the units which spearheaded the Soviet offensives on the Eastern Front from the Battle of Stalingrad to the Battle of Berlin were Shock Armies. Shock Armies had high proportions of infantry, engineers and field artillery, but with less emphasis on operational mobility and sustainability. Soviet assaults which were expected to lead to very high casualties were often led by penal battalions. Soviet Shock Armies were characterized by a higher allocation of army-level artillery units to break German defense positions by weight of fire, and often had heavy tank regiments or heavy self-propelled gun regiments to add additional direct fire support. Once a breach in the enemy tactical position was made, more mobile units such as tank and mechanized corps would be inserted through the Shock Army's positions with the mission of penetrating deep into the enemy rear area. By the end of the war, though, Soviet Guards Armies typically enjoyed superior artillery support to that of the shock armies.

"Often" don't means to be a requisite. Wiki states those kind of troops suffer high casualties and for that reason rusians used often prison inmates, and also states that kind of troops may have heavy weapons at their disposal.

Who were the Romulans fighting "In the Pale Moonlight"? It's been years since I've seen it. In the final battles, all the damage the D'deridex does and takes is completely inconclusive. The only conclusive scene is in TNG in "Tin Man", and the only scene with worth while hinting is the one where the three D'Deridexs get surrounded by the three Birds of Prey, and the Enterprise-D.

"In the Pale Moonlight" is where romulans enter the war. It's stated during the "fake meeting" Cisco uses to trick them, that romulans have its fleet in the "neutral zone" and the cardassian frontier is defenseless. So when romulans declare war against the Dominion, its fleet must move to the new front, a war front, assuming Federation is an ally and won't turn against them in the process.

No mighty fleet for romulans. They can't protect all its space at the same time and that leaves room for remans.


Romulan lose a ship. Should we assume romulans particpation acounted to just one ship? Second battle of Chin'toka - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OStP6yHokLY min 10.25

Romulan flag ship destroyed, their entire line collapsing - "Victory" (full espisode) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyW8ffdYnW0&feature=related min 19.52 -  "the klingon and romulan empires are in shape to wage war against anyone"_Odo min 38.40

Romulans barelly are seen but their loses are dialogued.



In the Pale of Moonlight (full espisode) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OStP6yHokLY

[Black Patriot]

Shock Troops is a general term for the masses of ground troops that are first deployed, to shock the enemy with a large number of exendable soldiers. Riker even calls them "cannon fodder", so from the context it's pretty clear that the Romulans didn't think that much of the Remans, and were only really using them because it was convenient. Now this by itself doesn't preclude the possibility of Reman military ships, but looking at it from the Romulan point of view, would you let a race of people that you've subjugated for centuries, and are now using as cheap throwaway soldiers, have control of powerful military ships? Especially against an enemy (the Dominion) that has shown no hesitation towards making deals with species in exchange for "control" over territories. The risk of a Reman alliance with the Dominion would be too great, at least if the Remans were under the control of Romulan field commanders, and were transported on Romulan ships, then the Romulans would have a measure of control, the Remans would never be able to build up a central control network (at least not a very effective one) and they wouldn't have direct access to ships, making any attempted coup very difficult. It was only when the Remans had the alliance of key Romulan Senators and Admirals that they were able to mount a coup.

I think the evidence for and against the Scimitar being a Reman ship is strong, it's unlikely that the Romulans would allow the Remans to control any military vessels, let alone one as powerful and destructive as the Scimitar, and it's equally unlikely that the Remans would have the knowledge or ability to build the Scimitar in secret. At the same time the Scimitar is different from nearly every other Romulan vessel ever seen, and it does seem to be outfitted for Remans, though there's no telling how long that sort of conversion would take, if you had a dedicated work force (which we can assume Shinzon had) then converting all the controls in a starship, even one as large as the Scimitar, wouldn't take that long.

As for the Tal'Shiar, I think their weakening was a political one, not a military one. The Tal'Shiar isn't really supposed to have ships, they can take control of Romulan Fleet ships, but they're not really meant to have their own dedicated fleet, so the revelation of such a fleet, as well as their failure was probably enough to do serious damage to the standing of the Tal'Shiar in the Senate.