Author Topic: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?  (Read 1903 times)

Offline Warbird

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Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« on: September 11, 2011, 06:20:38 PM »
Just curious which is more powerful  the Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird (D'deridex-class?)

Offline Mark

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2011, 09:24:10 PM »
Negh'Var is a much later design, and its focus is pretty much on all-out aggression. The D'Deridex is larger but also older, it is designed to handle a wider variety of situations and would probably not be as effective in one on one combat.

Purely speculative, but those are my thoughts :P

Offline Josh

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2011, 09:48:08 PM »
Remeber what a negh'var did with the shields from ds9?

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Offline MajorD

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2011, 10:36:12 PM »
I agree with Mark's speculation, however, it needs to be kept in mind just how much more gigantic the D'Deridex is over the Neg'Var. The Volumetrics page doesn't have the Neg'Var, but it isn't much bigger than a Vor'cha, maybe a third longer. Maybe around 5,000,000 m^3 for the Neg'var. The D'Deridex is listed at 26,000,000 m^3. It could dedicate 1/5 as much space to weapons as the Neg'Var and still equal it, if it were of similar a technological generation.  However, simply being larger means the D'Deridex could carry a power source larger than a Neg'Var ever could, which would mean all of its systems would have more power, and could run at higher levels simultaneously. It's individual systems should also reasonably handle a higher peak level. This doesn't even account for secondary power generation.

 To match the potential warp core volume in the D'Deridex's head, the Neg'var would have to have its reactor parallel to its length, if that even makes a difference. If it's all on the reaction chamber size, then reactor technologies with similar power density means the D'Deridex wins by pure volume. Only something like the Defiant's multichamber core would close the gap. The advantage of the Neg'var would need to be in higher sustained energy levels for the weapons, possibly greater capacitance for a higher peak than even the D'Deridex, but with a longer charge period. The Neg'Var should also have a distinctly lower spheroidal volume, leading to stronger shields at less energy.

As for secondary generation, a waste product of matter annihilation in a blackhole is antimatter. It would be sensible to have secondary antimatter reactors, or an antimatter stage in the Romulan warp core.

The problem with the Neg'var's act against DS9 is that DS9 had already been pounded by the Klingon fleet before that time. We don't know which took off how much of the shields, since no percentages are called out at any time. On the other side, we have in TNG: "Tin Man" a D'Deridex dropping the Enterprise-D's shields by 60% with 6 shots in 6 seconds.
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Offline webxro

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2011, 11:40:28 PM »
The truth might be somewhere in the middle , the Negh'Var  maybe might have a stronger mount , but might have the shields a little weaker . The reality is that the warbird has a big mass and a lot of space to take a beating , but that also means that the shield has to cover a bigger surface so it will be stretched thinner/
Still do we talk about the mirror-verse Negh'var or the prime-verse ?
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Offline Josh

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 12:54:46 AM »
Mirror one doesnt had a chance against the Defiant...

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Offline webxro

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2011, 12:59:00 AM »
Because of the size , it's hard to fire with a canon in a mosquito .
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2011, 04:01:07 AM »
Mirror one doesnt had a chance against the Defiant...

The Defiant and peregrine were flying so close to the hull that the weapons couldn't track fast enough to land hits. However, the solution to that is stupidly simple, actually there are a bunch of solutions.

MajorD's top three.

  • Expand the shields from the hull and push the Defiant outward.
  • Predict the Defiant's path and point the guns ahead of time. Durp.
  • Tractor beam.

I would have also accepted going to warp to put distance between the ships, point blank proximity detonated torpedoes, fire wide beam shots, and flying into the sun.
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2011, 04:21:42 AM »
The Negh'Var is actually a little bit bigger than the Galaxy, and apparently the Klingon Empire's brand-spanking-new Battleship. The D'Deridex is likely a bit older than the Galaxy - not terribly so, but a few years at least (though there are indications that there are actually two types of "Warbirds" - the monstrous D'Deridex that we know of, and a smaller, much more common version that we see in large numbers in DS9). In general, the D'Deridex is implied to be roughly comparable to the Galaxy in terms of combat performance - probably a bit more firepower but a bit less endurance. This might seem at odds with their relative sizes, but keep in mind that in TOS "Balance of Terror", we get an example of the best ship in the Romulan fleet, and aside from its cloak and very limited special weapon, it is paltry in comparison to the Enterprise. In the 2260s, the Romulans were still relying exclusively on fusion reactors, where as the Federation had been predominantly using M/AM reactors for a hundred years. The overall tech difference was significant, and while trades with the Klingons helped make up for that, and the Romulans made great progress in advancing their own technology, the Federation is probably still significantly more advanced, at least in terms of the firepower they can get out of a given volume.

Now, I think the D'Deridex's 'mouth' disruptor cannon is the single most powerful conventional energy cannon we've seen fielded by any starship, and I think the D'Deridex can dish out a devastating amount of firepower in her opening salvo, but I think the Negh'Var ultimately has it beat in sustained combat, both in endurance (particularly spaceframe endurance - analysis of the damage done to Klingon warships in the Battle of Chin'Toka vs Federation starships and Romulan Warbirds implies they have significantly greater armor strength and endurance over Federation starships, which in turn are notably superior to Romulan armor), and in sustained and total firepower. The D'Deridex can probably throw out a much more powerful opening salvo, enough to cripple or destroy most cruisers in a single salvo, but then recharge and cooldown times give it a long wait time between such salvos (which is what we would expect of an ambush-predator like the D'Deridex), but in a sustained fight, the Negh'Var would probably quickly overwhelm a D'Deridex in sustained fire.
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Offline Aresius

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2011, 05:27:31 AM »
I think it's pretty obvious which I'm for....

The Negh'Var is stronger because unlike the D'Deridex, it is build solely for conquest and destruction. It ovvers little area to attack when running at an enemy frontally, or even from the side, while a D'Deridex does so massively with it's big nose and bent wings.
Also, a Negh'Vars tech is newer than that of a D'Deridex.

Offline Warbird

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2011, 06:07:38 PM »
I don't know if this site is correct but it says Negh'Var 680 Meters the d'deridex 1140 meters.

http://www.cardassiaprimera.com.ar/Escalas_Naves_Star_Trek.htm


Offline Statius

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2011, 09:57:40 PM »
I believe Probert's suggested length for the D'Deridex is 1350. The sheer difference in volume should reasonably account for something. It may be able to match the offensive power of the Negh'Var in addition to sporting other capabilities. e.g. greater physical endurance, redundant systems, or a variety of mission capabilities.

We also have to keep in mind that the Romulans would also be upgrading their fleet as time passed. I think part of the problem, subjectively, is that Warbirds seem commonplace, simply because we have seen so few other smaller designs, which would more likely make up the majority of the Romulan fleet.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 10:14:37 PM by Statius »
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 12:07:27 AM »
With that, you can see the main weapon on the D'Deridex could easily be as big as one of the Negh'Var's weapon pods, while the secondary weapons would at worst individuallly equal, and outnumber the Negh'Var's. Going by size, I think the D'Deridex's secondaries would probably outpower the Negh'Var's.

Looks to me that the Negh'Var has a distinct forward firepower adventage, but if we go with the hubcaps on the D'Deridex as secondaries then the D'Deridex has a huge omindirectional fire advantage. Also, the D'Deridex's raw power advantage should be tremendous, even though shielding it would be far more energy intensive.
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Offline Statius

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 01:16:57 AM »
If my little thread on the Negh'Var weapons is to be trusted, the Negh"var has somewhere between 30-50 weapon emplacements of varying kinds. An inspection of the D'Deridex shows several fewer but much larger emplacements, if we follow both screen evidence and what Andrew Probert said about the design (http://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/554/3.html#000043).



Five pairs of very large spherical emitters, a forward emitter, a nose emitter and an emitter between the wings for a total of thirteen disruptor emitters, visible either on screen or on the studio model. There may be other reasonable weapons ports too, but it offensive style is not the same as the Negh'Var's, with probably more of an emphasis on precise, more powerful weapons, rather than numerous weapons.

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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2011, 02:26:41 AM »
Well, I'm fairly confident that a Negh'Var would have considerably superior endurance to a D'Deridex, despite the size difference. The First Battle of Chin'Toka gives us an excellent direct comparison of Klingon, Federation and Romulan armor performance against the same weaponry at the same time, and the Klingon armor comes out the superior of the three by far, while the Romulans' is notably inferior. In the very beginning of the battle when the weapons platforms come online, we see a D'deridex get hit by two beams on its 'forehead', which cause major damage and a rapidly expanding hole. Moments later we see the USS Galaxy get hit by three such beams on its belly with a similar but much smaller hole (easily 2-3 times smaller), with notably slower expanding after effects. We later see the same weapons inflict much smaller holes on Klingon warships, even the BoPs, with expanding after-effects moving notably slower than they did on Federation ships. We even see a Vor'cha at one point take six of the torpedo/pulse weapons to a nacelle, enough to destroy any of the Federation cruisers and inflict significant damage to even the USS Galaxy, yet the damage is relatively minor (the nacelle starts visibly venting plasma, but no gaping hole is visible, and the hole we see blown into the USS Galaxy's saucer by just three such shots should have been just barely visible at that range, and six shots should have definitely been visible, if the armor performance was comparable to Federation armor).

The direct comparison of the D'Deridex and Galaxy performance indicates that the Galaxy's armor endurance is easily 3-4.5 times greater than that of the D'Deridex (a hole 33%-50% the size of that on the D'Deridex inflicted by 50% more firepower), and quite possibly even more than that. We also clearly see that Klingon armor demonstrates performance that is at least twice that of the Federation (though probably no more than three times - the nacelle on that Vor'cha was quite visibly venting plasma). This would easily put Klingon armor endurance at six to thirteen and a half times that of Romulan armor endurance, significantly surpassing the size difference between the D'Deridex and Negh'Var even on the low end.


Coupled with the known technological inferiority that the Romulans had to overcome (an unlikely occurrence, given the rate of Federation technological advancement and the Federation-Klingon alliance), the fact that Romulans do not use M/AM reactors but an artificial singularity power source, which could well require considerably more space for comparable energy production, and the fact that they also apparently do not use conventional impulse engines, either (the D'Deridexi have no sublight engine exhaust ports; given the general strategies and tactics of the RSE, and the fact that we see other Romulan ships that do have impulse exhaust ports, I would speculate that the D'Deridex uses an alternative method that is more stealthy but that consumes more space), I would say that, despite the massive size of the D'Deridex, she is ultimately a notably inferior direct-combat vessel to the Negh'Var. I would honestly expect the Negh'Var to be able to compete about equally with two D'Deridex in a direct combat engagement.

I will note, however, that the D'Deridex is most likely NOT designed for that kind of engagement, at least not as her primary combat role. The D'Deridex is most definitely a potent and powerful battleship with 360-degree arc coverage with large and powerful weapons, but this is most likely ancillary to her primary combat role as an ambush predator. She is designed to be able to fill the role, but it's not the primary role she's designed to fill. The D'Deridex's main 'mouth' gun is probably the single largest disruptor cannon ever built in all of known Trek (barring hyper-advanced ancient powers), or at least fielded on an actual starship and not a dedicated battlestation. It has also demonstrated more firepower than any other conventional energy weapon ever observed (capable of dropping the shields of even a Galaxy class starship down to 30% with a single salvo of seven pulses). Now, we know that the D'Deridex is only roughly comparable to the Galaxy, as implied throughout TNG, meaning that in a sustained fight the overall firepower of the D'Deridex is only roughly comparable or possibly a little superior to the Galaxy's (we know that spaceframe endurance is roughly comparable or a little inferior to the Galaxy's based on armor performance seen in DS9, and ship volume), so the D'Deridex obviously cannot sustain that kind of firepower, but in an opening salvo the D'Deridex can probably throw out more firepower than any other ship currently fielded by the major powers on this side of the galaxy. Now, she's something of a glass cannon, but a stealthy glass cannon meant to devastate or obliterate the enemy with its opening salvo as it drops its cloak fits precisely with the standard Romulan Modus Operandi.

So, in a straight-up fight, I would say that a single  Negh'Var would cream a single D'Deridex, and probably beat two D'Deridexi, though it would sustain heavy damage in the process. A single D'Deridex ambushing a Negh'Var would probably be able to inflict some damage, but would also probably still lose. Two D'Deridexi ambushing a Negh'Var would probably win, though they would likely sustain significant damage and maybe even lose a warbird.
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Offline Warbird

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2011, 04:41:20 AM »
What would be the man power needed to run each ship?

Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2011, 05:27:43 AM »
Well, that really depends... Going by the crew count of a Galaxy class, something like a thousand or so for the Negh'Var, and something like five thousand for the D'Deridex, though it could easily be less or more for both. I imagine that Klingon ships have a higher crew count than Federation ships, for a number of different reasons, and Romulan ships would likely have a higher crew count required as well, though with the Warbird it's hard to say because so much of its size could be coming from the non-conventional power generation and sublight propulsion systems. But we have seen ships run by a handful of people, or even individuals before. They are generally limited in what they can do in those instances (mainly performing standardized, pre-programmed routines and maneuvers), and they would have effectively zero damage control, but in theory any 'modern' Trek ship could be run on computer control, with greatly reduced efficiency.

Best-guess, though, I'd say probably two to three thousand crew on the Negh'Var (including the Klingon equivalent of a Marine compliment), and five thousand or so crew for the D'Deridex. I imagine that both are more labor-intensive, and the Klingons would definitely have a fair number of troops on board most of the time. Despite the larger size, I don't think the Romulan crew density would be any greater for the D'Deridex than for the Galaxy, partly because the Galaxy has a lot of 'extra' crew dedicated purely to sciences to a much greater extent than the D'deridex would have, and the D'deridex probably has a lot of 'empty' spaces that are taken up by extra-large equipment that, while more crew-intensive than their Federation counterparts, are larger in volume than they are in crew intensity (that, and I suspect that much of the D'Deridex's size is there just for sheer damage-absorbing bulk to make it comparable to the Galaxy and Nebula classes).
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2011, 07:26:17 AM »
What would be the man power needed to run each ship?
There's no telling, because we don't know what the power requirements of anything is in Trek, except for a very few isolated equipment items. We also only have idling power levels for the Galaxy and Voyager (through a single EPS conduit), so we have no idea what the average and top power generation levels are either. They could be anything for any particular item.
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Offline metalnick

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2011, 02:06:50 AM »
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Offline Unimatrix325

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Re: Negh'Var or Romulan Warbird, which is more powerful?
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 10:59:25 PM »
Hello.
(Hi MajorD - I think we've met on TNZ forums some time ago :-)
Recently I encountered this topic by searching some ST stuff and because I'm a huge ST battles/ships/weaponry nerd I couldn't resist to post my opinions here :)

I would try to express my personal opinion first : After years of watching/talking about ST I see warbird as a backbone of romulan navy. As a all-purpose ship. Design probably several decades old (speaking form the view of Nemesis date). Certainly an oponent for largest ships of Federation or Klingons. But when talking about size, I understand it more of a scary factor, than power factor.
I think Negh'Var is more powerful since it's more recent and more dedicated to combat. I see Negh'Var as a ship of Sovereign level, while Warbird is more of a Galaxy level.
I largely agree with first Ilithi_Dragon's post.

I disagree about basing the strength calculation on a size/volume. Firstly - warbird is large from the outside, but it does have a lot of empty space. In addition a lot of hull (wings) maybe just raw structure, without any other functionality than to carry the engines and make the ships larger. So IMHO the warbird effective-hull is more or less only the head, the tail and some parts inbetween.
Also the length value varies from source to source, but I believe DS9 TM says even "only" 1041m.
The implication of larger ship -> large and more powerful power source may be missleading. It may as well the other way around :
to have power source of this output, it needs to be this size -> large ship.

As for disruptors placements on warbird - the photodocumentation is impressive. It makes me really sad, that onscreen we've seen basically only shots from the head. It would make a lot more sense for warbird to have a good coverage around the hull, since it is probably quite slow turner.