Holograms and then some more holograms

[sman789]

Did episodes of Voyager like Message in a Bottle (the Prometheus one), Future's end (mobile emmitter and the timeships) and Critical Care (Doctor gets stolen by hospital workers to work as their new doctor) ever bother anyone? They all involved the Doctor being sent somewhere (or stolen) and not simply copied. I remember on Message in a Bottle when the crew tried to re-write the Doctor, but why was it necessary. If he is a computer program, then why could he not simply be copied, like when I bluetooth mp3s to my friends download an open-source app from the internet

It's also interesting because on Future's End and (I think) Critical Care, the doctor's program was stolen by a simple read of Voyager's database. No other data was destroyed by the operation, and transference of the hologram was, in the first case, not even intentional - so why would all the other data be intact and yet Voyager's local copy of the hologram be gone.

I know this is one of those things you just have to accept when watching the show - but seeing as fans seem to have come up with an explanation for just about every error, omission and inconistancy within and between every series, I was wondering if any of you had one for why only one of each hologram could exist, despite it being nothing more than a computer program (something said on the show many times).

 Also - every starship had an EMH, and one episode showed hundreds of them working a mine. Presumably they were not all written independently of each other

[Darkthunder]

The thing that bothered me, is that in the 'Message in a Bottle' episode, Paris made a big deal about how the Doctor was gone, and Kim would have to write a new doctor from scratch.

And yet, in the episode 'Living Witness' which takes place 700+ years in the future, it is revealed that the EMH has a backup module, as that is the EMH we see for most of said episode. The "Primary" EMH module likely still aboard the "Warship" Voyager.

[Warsome]

Quite simply I am gonna say pass to this, its just an example of a story line not thought out properly, Voyager is full of these errors.  I just watch the shows purely for their entertainment value and I dont try to get to deeply into there lack of thought and background preperation when they mess us, which is common in every TV show and film sci fi or otherwise.

It is possible that the back up module does not hold all of the doctors programming.  Maybe it only keeps parts that make the doctor who he is now.  Please keep in mind that his program has been majorly altered and changed.  Maybe the purpose of the back up module was altered also, we will never know, its all non canon speculation.

[Einherjar]

Trek has a long history of data not being able to be copied.
In several episodes, data was downloaded by an enemy and the original data was removed and not simply copied.

It buggs the hell out of me.

[Warsome]

I guess the federation do not believe in USB back up sticks in case the computer crashes or espionage.

[joe5]

i agree that it does not make much sense but mabby the information is stored in patterns of impulses not the cercuts the travel through. this would also explain how a holow matrix can degrade even with the program off.

[MajorD]

Did episodes of Voyager like Message in a Bottle (the Prometheus one), Future's end (mobile emmitter and the timeships) and Critical Care (Doctor gets stolen by hospital workers to work as their new doctor) ever bother anyone? They all involved the Doctor being sent somewhere (or stolen) and not simply copied. I remember on Message in a Bottle when the crew tried to re-write the Doctor, but why was it necessary. If he is a computer program, then why could he not simply be copied, like when I bluetooth mp3s to my friends download an open-source app from the internet

It's also interesting because on Future's End and (I think) Critical Care, the doctor's program was stolen by a simple read of Voyager's database. No other data was destroyed by the operation, and transference of the hologram was, in the first case, not even intentional - so why would all the other data be intact and yet Voyager's local copy of the hologram be gone.

I know this is one of those things you just have to accept when watching the show - but seeing as fans seem to have come up with an explanation for just about every error, omission and inconistancy within and between every series, I was wondering if any of you had one for why only one of each hologram could exist, despite it being nothing more than a computer program (something said on the show many times).

 Also - every starship had an EMH, and one episode showed hundreds of them working a mine. Presumably they were not all written independently of each other

The short answer is, Trek computer science is stupid. I don't know computer science well enough to come up with an explanation for this phenomena, but I would like one too. Best as I can figure, advanced information exists physically in Trek systems, and removing data from a system is as literal as removing an apple from a basket.

This could possibly related to the relationship of soul and biogenic energy, and how it interacts in transporters. I can't really unite these thoughts, though.

[Aresius]

I don't know, maybe in the future, the idea of copy'n'paste has become obsolete and there's only cut'n'paste.

But on a more serious note, I believe that it often is due to the difference in technology. Maybe the read-only acccess in Critical Care had a different setting from the aliens perspective and only the human/Federation technology recognised/interpreted it as such.

[Atlantisbase]

As far as the doctor goes, his program is far more advanced than any other program; it's possible that the manner in which his program was designed means that he can only be moved as a single contained unit. It may have to do with the fact that he has AI elements and "memories" and if you copy him, you will ultimately have to deal with the reintegration of the memory and what ever changes in his code may have occurred due to the evolution of his AI. Its also possible that his program takes up a significant amount of space, even by Trek standards and to keep backups would be an inefficient use of stroage space.

[sman789]

As far as the doctor goes, his program is far more advanced than any other program; it's possible that the manner in which his program was designed means that he can only be moved as a single contained unit. It may have to do with the fact that he has AI elements and "memories" and if you copy him, you will ultimately have to deal with the reintegration of the memory and what ever changes in his code may have occurred due to the evolution of his AI. Its also possible that his program takes up a significant amount of space, even by Trek standards and to keep backups would be an inefficient use of stroage space.

That's not what we mean. Even if the doctor's program was huge, it doesn't explain why transmitting it or having it copied causes the local copy to be deleted...

[Black Patriot]

That's not what we mean. Even if the doctor's program was huge, it doesn't explain why transmitting it or having it copied causes the local copy to be deleted...

No kidding, there is no explanation for why the Doctor doesn't behave like a regular computer program, as we understand them, other than that's what the plot demanded. It would have made far more sense if the doctor's program could only be contained within specialized hardware, a la the Blue Box from Mass Effect, that was necessary for his operation. This still wouldn't preclude the possibility of the Doctor's data from being transmitted to another computer system, but it would place constraints on what sort of hardware could be used to actually run his program.

[Darkthunder]

No kidding, there is no explanation for why the Doctor doesn't behave like a regular computer program, as we understand them, other than that's what the plot demanded. It would have made far more sense if the doctor's program could only be contained within specialized hardware, a la the Blue Box from Mass Effect, that was necessary for his operation. This still wouldn't preclude the possibility of the Doctor's data from being transmitted to another computer system, but it would place constraints on what sort of hardware could be used to actually run his program.

Problem is thou, a run-of-the-mill 1990s-era computer was capable of running his program just fine, with the help of 29th century inspired holo-projectors throughout the office space

[Jon Deane]

I wouldn't exactly call those run-of-the-mill 1990s era computers.  It was an alternate timeline after all.  I would say they were more powerful than what we had at the time despite appearances.

The real-world reason, of course, is that the writers are treating the doctor like a character and not a program, so they're just subbing the word "downloaded" for "kidnapped".

[sman789]

I wouldn't exactly call those run-of-the-mill 1990s era computers.  It was an alternate timeline after all.  I would say they were more powerful than what we had at the time despite appearances.

The real-world reason, of course, is that the writers are treating the doctor like a character and not a program, so they're just subbing the word "downloaded" for "kidnapped".

It's not an alternate timeline in that sense, it becomes the main timeline. We're supposed to assume that those events with Starling are actually what happened in our present time and it's the reason we have all these computers as they are (at least that's how I think it was supposed to work - no-one ever "undid" that timeline). I'd just guess that his 1990s terminal was linked to a more 29th century design computer server.

[Black Patriot]

It's not an alternate timeline in that sense, it becomes the main timeline. We're supposed to assume that those events with Starling are actually what happened in our present time and it's the reason we have all these computers as they are (at least that's how I think it was supposed to work - no-one ever "undid" that timeline). I'd just guess that his 1990s terminal was linked to a more 29th century design computer server.

Not even that, it's explicitly stated that the advancements in computers were directly caused by the presence of the time ship and Henry Starling's exploitation of it, so it's not an alternate timeline, and it's never stated as such.

I wouldn't exactly call those run-of-the-mill 1990s era computers.  It was an alternate timeline after all.  I would say they were more powerful than what we had at the time despite appearances.

The real-world reason, of course, is that the writers are treating the doctor like a character and not a program, so they're just subbing the word "downloaded" for "kidnapped".

We don't know that, all we know is that Starling had a 29th century time ship and controlled it (and the technology he had appropriated from it, such as the holoprojectors in his office) from his 20th century computer terminal. The most likely explanation was that the Doctor was run from the time ship's computer core, and piped through the holoprojectors until Starling created the mobile emitter for him.

[MajorD]

So Cut&Past Doctor, here's my explanation. It's not that the Doctor can't be copied, it's the programming that automatically erases the origin data when copied. Let's call it a safety feature against the possibility of a hologram spawning off hundreds of itself to flood the computers and take over. It may also be trying to avoid the issue of if you have Doctor 01 make Doctor 02, given enough time 02 will be its own person and may not want to reintegrate with 01. That example can also lead to a, slower, form of flooding systems with copied data.

[Black Patriot]

So Cut&Past Doctor, here's my explanation. It's not that the Doctor can't be copied, it's the programming that automatically erases the origin data when copied. Let's call it a safety feature against the possibility of a hologram spawning off hundreds of itself to flood the computers and take over. It may also be trying to avoid the issue of if you have Doctor 01 make Doctor 02, given enough time 02 will be its own person and may not want to reintegrate with 01. That example can also lead to a, slower, form of flooding systems with copied data.

A reasonable explanation, though one would wonder why they couldn't just deny any holographic program the ability to edit itself (which as I recall they did do, the Doctor couldn't modify himself until they gave him the ability). If we also assume that specialized hardware is needed for more complex programs, such as the Doctor, then that would also limit their ability to reproduce, as there would eventually be too many copies for the hardware to handle and it would grind to a halt.

[MajorD]

It appears to fit.

Going by the backup device for the Doctor, it appears that a very small device is required for storage. That fits with the Moriarty storage device, which also contained his girlfriend, who was also self aware. However, going with the latter example, an Xbox huge laptop is needed to actually run the holograms in their rubix cube size data storage device, but at an unknown speed.

If I were projecting this into the present Trek, then the device to run the Doctor would be maybe the size of a modern 13 inch laptop, and capable of real time use.  If I wanted to be very conservative, I would say Moriarty's device is 1/10 real time, or less, but could be the size of a Mac Book Air.

Either way, you could have the Doctor walking around freely using something the size of Bone's tool bag, and it could hold a few tools, even if most of it had to be filled with computer.

[Black Patriot]

It appears to fit.

Going by the backup device for the Doctor, it appears that a very small device is required for storage. That fits with the Moriarty storage device, which also contained his girlfriend, who was also self aware. However, going with the latter example, an Xbox huge laptop is needed to actually run the holograms in their rubix cube size data storage device, but at an unknown speed.

If I were projecting this into the present Trek, then the device to run the Doctor would be maybe the size of a modern 13 inch laptop, and capable of real time use.  If I wanted to be very conservative, I would say Moriarty's device is 1/10 real time, or less, but could be the size of a Mac Book Air.

Either way, you could have the Doctor walking around freely using something the size of Bone's tool bag, and it could hold a few tools, even if most of it had to be filled with computer.

Indeed, the algorithms that control his behavior and personality would be rather small in storage space when not running, but we could presume that when he is run the actual memory usage of his higher cognitive functions takes up considerably more space, orders of magnitude more even. Moriarty and his girlfriend were comparatively simple programs (we can assume that the Enterprise's computers couldn't simply generate a conscious holocharacter of the same abilities as the Doctor), allowing for their storage within the small computer module whilst still letting them to perceive a considerable section of our Galaxy without knowing any better.

The Doctor's memories could be compressed, only the key information would need to be stored, everything else could be extrapolated from previous memories, where applicable. For example, say the Doctor has a conversation with Harry Kim, he doesn't need to store the video or any visual information that wasn't unique to that encounter, Harry's appearance would already be stored from previous encounters. This would minimize his overall storage space without diminishing his ability to recall past events.

I should also point out that we do see the Doctor's primary processing unit, it's the large panel to the right of the Sickbay door (looking from the inside). We see Tuvok threaten it with a Phaser at one point (at least I think it was Tuvok). So the Doctor takes up a bit more than a toolbag, but not by much. There's also the possibility that it could be made mobile by storing it within the Doctor's projected body, like Rimmer's light bee from Red Dwarf. The Doctor's body should be large enough to store the processor, though I'm not certain that a sufficient power supply could also be placed within him, at least not one with much endurance.

[MajorD]

That pretty much turns him into a holographic robot, which is cool. That reminds me of the probe Geordi used for telespresence. It was capable of flight and I think it used tractor beams for manipulation of objects.

I think we actually discussed this before. It would probably take less power to have a Soong type body, running a holographic brain.  I bet it's also possible to make a more costly, denser, computer for the doctor than was used in sickbay.