Author Topic: torpedo yealds  (Read 1127 times)

Offline joe5

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torpedo yealds
« on: July 21, 2011, 12:40:46 PM »
i was curiouse if anyone has an explanation for why trek torpidos have such low yealds.  we know that they can have larger yealds and indeed it seams to be simply a case of pushing a few buttons. becuse of this and the fact that they only seem to be used in special cases i was thinking that maby the smaller yealds are controled in some whay so that they do damage in a different way or to specific matirials (whatever hulls are made of).


what do you guys think?

Offline MajorD

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2011, 12:59:48 PM »
We don't actually know what the yields are, they could be anything from ridiculously weak to absurdly powerful. "Pegasus" versus "The Die is Cast". Basically, it's what the plot demands, but I like the ridiculous values.

The simplest way to adjust the yield, since they use antimatter, is to load less antimatter before arming. Alternatively, eject matter or antimatter at a safe distance from the ship before impact with the enemy.

I also think torpedoes can control how they explode, with either an unfocused explosion like a normal bomb, or a shaped charge putting more energy toward the target. They might even be able to direct their energy through their shield into an enemy shield, which would result in a very clean, seemingly weak, impact.

[edit]We already had a similar thread.
http://www.stexcalibur.com/forum/index.php/topic,5119.msg101097.html#msg101097
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 01:21:30 PM by MajorD »
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 06:41:17 PM »
Standard yield seems to be ~42 megatons by TNG, though this is upped to ~64 megatons later in the series/in DS9, though the actual yield is very flexible (see MajorD's post above).

Additionally, it is very much worth noting that an explosion in space would look rather less spectacular than in atmosphere, especially a nuke or M/AM explosion, because there's no atmosphere to ionize and generate a fireball. All you'd get is a very, very brief strobe light-like flash. Which is generally consistent with most of the torp explosions we see through the series in TNG and into DS9 (though VFX stylization changed a bit later on). There are only a handful of instances wherein torp explosions don't seem consistent with a 42-64+ megaton explosion, but most of these can be explained by the directional 'shaping' of the blast using short-lived forcefields, or simply by assuming that the variable yield was dialed down to avoid collateral damage (such as when Voyager fired on a shuttle over a city, while the shuttle was hovering next to a building containing crewmembers).
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Offline webxro

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2011, 06:37:23 PM »
Ok now i have a question : How about the kinetic energy of a torpedo ? I made a post about this on Gateworld
Quote
I will start this presentation by calculating the maximum (non-warp) speed of a photon torpedo launched by a Intrepid class ship ( because is the only one that i know the maximum impulse ) , as we know from the episode Timeless Voyager could travel at roughly 80% light speed (aka 239 833 966 m/s) .

The maximum speed of photon torpedo is as stated here
Vmax = Vl + (0.75 Vl / c), where Vl is the velocity of the launching vessel
so let's punch the numbers

Vmax= 239833966+(0.75*239833966/c) =239 833 967 M/s (according to google)

We also know the mass of a mark XXV torpedo used in 2375 as a total of 186.7 kilograms .

and let's use the kinetic energy formula



Kinetic Energy = 1/2*186.7*(239833967^2) =5.36952297 — 10^18

now let me translate , the maximum power of a photon torpedo without the content is 536952.297 Terajoules or 128.3 MT without adding the explosive power of the antimatter , now i am the not best trek fan (i am mostly impartial) i would suggest calculating the power of a photon torpedo for a warp factor using relativistic formula for kinetic energy .
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Offline MajorD

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2011, 03:40:05 AM »
You should account for mass lightening through use of warp fields. Speed counts for more than mass, but it will still effect your calculations significantly.
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2011, 04:10:18 AM »
You would also need to factor in the torpedo's own propulsion systems in accelerating it, and any additional acceleration provided by the launcher itself (though the latter is probably not that significant for an Intrepid class launcher).

That would make the standard photon torpedo seem to be a pretty darn effective kinetic impactor all on its own, though. Like a very powerful guided bullet. But you would have to score a direct hit for each shot to be properly effective, and I've always had the impression (with the exception of the ramming scene in Nemesis, which can be explained by Shinzon lowering the Scimitar's shields out of extreme over-confidence and impaired mental function from his condition) that Trek shields tend to be more effective against kinetic impacts than energetic impacts (and generally, it is easier to push aside a fast-moving rock than a beam of light of equal energy). Plus, the warhead would give torpedoes some wiggle room in precise accuracy, especially if the yield is shaped by short-lived forcefields, and the explosion would make the warhead that much more potent, since you would have to combine the kinetic energy and the energy of the blast to get the total effective energy-to-target yield.
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Offline webxro

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 06:00:39 AM »
The idea it's that these torpedoes can get to warp and when things get there numbers get weird and look almost like       and over warp 5 numbers get weird at least that's what i think i am not good at math but i am the best at making rules .
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2011, 06:49:23 AM »
Well, personally I'm not convinced that warp-speed impacts work that way. If warp-speed collisions continued even on just a straight linear scale like in Newtonian physics models, you wouldn't need explosive warheads or even beams, just throw something at them at warp and you could crack planets with a baseball.

The warp field makes things work funny, since technically ships at warp aren't actually traveling faster than light. I think the worst case scenario you're going to get from a warp-speed collision is the sublight impact effect of whatever speed the object was traveling before jumping to warp, plus some gravitational sheering effects of the warp field (which would probably be quickly disrupted in the event of a collision with something). There may also be some other effects, but it's really hard to say.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2011, 07:38:50 AM »
I think warp impacts would most likely result in field collapse and impact at original speed, too. Otherwise, all we would see are warp speed based weapons for use against ships and planets.

However, if you were going with warp speed impact attacks, then I agree that Newtonian progression would be the way to go, rather than trying to make relativity work.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 07:45:38 AM by MajorD »
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 09:05:14 AM »
Yup. Besides, the relativistic effects are caused by the curve to lightspeed. I don't think that would apply when you introduce FTL capabilities that by-pass relativistic effects.
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2011, 10:21:36 AM »
If you do a search, torpedo yields were discussed before.  Do a search.  This was discussed before.
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2011, 12:19:25 PM »
All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again.
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2011, 02:58:07 PM »
All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again.

LMAO!  Yea, it will!  Your right!  Just go with the flow.

Anyway, I thought a made a few good points about torpedo yields and there destructive power.  I may chat about them later, but it's late here.  I have had a few beers, and it's off to bed now.
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Offline Josh F

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2011, 05:29:01 PM »
Here's the thing about torpedo yields, or any explosion in space for that matter...60 megatons in a vacuum doesn't equate to 60 megatons in a relatively "thick" atmosphere, in terms of destructive effect.  The main reason for this is that energy does not propagate nearly as well in a vacuum.  There aren't many particles to excite, and no atmosphere in which to generate an overpressure wave (which accounts for much of the destruction in, say, a nuclear blast).  Basically what you get is a bunch of hard radiation...in the case of an antimatter explosion, that's gamma-rays, neutrons, neutrinos, and muons (which usually break down into electrons and more neutrinos, believe it or not).  You'll get thermal radiation emissions from the incredibly hot ball of plasma the warhead becomes when it detonates, but more than half of the particles (half of the energetic release) thrown out by the detonation will be neutrinos.  Problem with that is, neutrinos don't really interact with normal matter in any significant way (you heard me, Mr. Roland Emmerich...just shut your cakehole). 

So what you're left with is 40-45% of the harmful stuff shooting away from the point of detonation, linearly.  And again, there's no atmosphere in which that energy can propagate through matter (air molecules, etc.), and a lot of the radiation isn't visible to the naked eye.  Furthermore, in the vacuum of space, the detonating material expands so quickly that the major visible portion of the explosion would be over and done in a fraction of a second.  Maybe a flash of intense blue light, like lightning or a bulb on one of those old-style cameras, but that's all.  You wouldn't have a fireball or anything like that unless you were mucking around in a Jovian atmosphere...or perhaps a nebula with the right density and composition. 

In space, a big boom by our terrestrial standards is not so big a boom after all.  Granted, in this context, that boom is directly impacting a ship's hull or energy shields.  You'd have contact transference, and that can do a lot of damage (especially if the warhead is designed with some kind of tamper that channels the energy in one direction...like a shaped charge on conventional explosives).  But a starship won't take any real area-of-effect or "splash" damage from a torpedo in space unless it's very, very close...maybe forty kilometers or so (assuming the yield is about 60 megatons).  And that range is akin to almost touching noses, as far as space combat is concerned.  Typical engagements are going to be at thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers, minimum.  Space is vast.

One thing I've always scratched my head at with Trek is the whole concept of ships not (frequently) using ECM or point-defense systems to shoot down enemy torpedoes/missiles.  It really makes a lot of sense.  You don't want one of those things hitting you, especially if your shields are down.  And since most of the uses of torpedoes we've seen in the shows have been at sublight speeds anyway (if they were being fired at FTL velocity instead of using "warp sustainer" systems while the ship was at warp, we wouldn't be able to see 'em leave the tubes), you'd think there would be more practical, aggressive, and active anti-"vampire" systems in place.  And don't give me that whole, "Well, it's really hard to hit them in flight" argument, because it's crap.  I find it hard to believe you can build a super-accurate guidance system for a torpdeo, but not a countermeasure for it.  Especially given that energy weapons with pinpoint accuracy are a dime a dozen in the Trekverse.  They make perfect point-defense systems, by definition.

Whatever.  It's a television show.  Rest assured, Excalibur won't take any of my spotty real-world physics into account.  It's a game, and games are supposed to be fun.  That means big, familiar explosions and sound effects and the whole wonderful mess.

 :P


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« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 05:39:05 PM by Josh F »

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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2011, 11:25:56 PM »
lol

Josh, you make very good points on the reality of physics, and the nature of explosions in space, and better than I have been trying to make them (probably through a solidly entertaining level of bluntness).
} : = 8 )


Regarding anti-torpedo actions, we HAVE seen that on occasion. In TWoK, when Khan fires a torpedo at the Enterprise during his surprise attack, Kirk sees the torpedo firing and orders Sulu to divert everything to the phasers, but is told it is too late as the torpedo swarms up close on the viewscreen. Those two statements do not make sense together if they were going to target the Reliant. It only makes sense if the intent was to shoot the torpedo down with phasers, but the torpedo was already too close to shoot down. There is also an episode in Voyager where the Doctor, while in control of Voyager, uses a torpedo to shoot down another torpedo though I can't for the life of me recall the episode name. The shot was tricky and uncertain of succeeding, but successful, demonstrating that the concept of shooting down incoming torpedoes is not lost on Trek.


That shot also does provide support for the most likely reason why torpedoes are not routinely targeted and destroyed almost before they even leave the launch tubes: Shielded torpedoes. We know Trek can create potent shields in even rather small packages, especially if they're not looking for sustainability (or re-usability), and there is enough evidence to indicate that the classic torpedo 'glow' is actually a shield created around the torpedo by shield overloading shield generators. The ep where the Doctor shot down a torpedo with another torpedo further supports this because success required a tricky 'direct hit' on the incoming torpedo, which would have been completely unnecessary if the torpedo was not shielded. All that would have been required would be to have the anti-torpedo torpedo detonate in the target torpedo's path, and let the 42-64+ megaton standard yield of the torpedo's warhead do all the work.  But a direct hit was required, suggesting that a standard torpedo's shields are strong enough to endure even a close-proximity torpedo detonation, and require a relatively large amount of firepower to 'pop.' We know Trek weapons are generally accurate enough to hit a torpedo, even in TOS, but they have to hit the torpedo with enough firepower, or over a long enough period, to penetrate it's shields, and a simple evasion program in the torpedo's guidance systems would make it a very hard target to hit consecutively. Another torpedo could do it, but scoring a direct hit shot with another torpedo is tricky, and wastes an entire, full-scale torpedo. The big guns on capital ships like the Galaxy class could probably pop a torpedo with a single hit, but that would be like using the Iowa's 16" main batteries to try and shoot a small torpedo before it hits the ship. Those big guns wouldn't be able to fire fast enough to pop a significant number of torpedoes if fired in a large barrage before they hit the ship, and the shots would be put to much better use smacking the enemy ship around. The lighter phasers of smaller ships probably can't put out enough firepower to penetrate more than one or two torpedoes' shields before they hit even at conventional engagement ranges.

This may also explain why we almost never see very long-range engagements with torpedoes (which have demonstrated ranges on the order of 4.5 million kilometers at absolute minimum, for the relatively-primitive-by-Federation-standards Kazon, in VOY "Basics, Pt 1" (Kazon torps fired at Voyager as she approaches at warp, start impacting 15 seconds before Voyager drops out of warp. 4.5 million km is minimum if Voyager was approaching at Warp 1)): At longer ranges, opposing ships would have more time to shoot the torpedoes down before impact, and the torpedoes' shield generators themselves may only have a limited operational lifespan before they burn out, and thus leave the torpedoes unprotected and easily dispatched.
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2011, 02:15:33 AM »
Here's the thing about torpedo yields, or any explosion in space for that matter...60 megatons in a vacuum doesn't equate to 60 megatons in a relatively "thick" atmosphere, in terms of destructive effect.  The main reason for this is that energy does not propagate nearly as well in a vacuum.  There aren't many particles to excite, and no atmosphere in which to generate an overpressure wave (which accounts for much of the destruction in, say, a nuclear blast).  Basically what you get is a bunch of hard radiation...in the case of an antimatter explosion, that's gamma-rays, neutrons, neutrinos, and muons (which usually break down into electrons and more neutrinos, believe it or not).  You'll get thermal radiation emissions from the incredibly hot ball of plasma the warhead becomes when it detonates, but more than half of the particles (half of the energetic release) thrown out by the detonation will be neutrinos.  Problem with that is, neutrinos don't really interact with normal matter in any significant way (you heard me, Mr. Roland Emmerich...just shut your cakehole). 

So what you're left with is 40-45% of the harmful stuff shooting away from the point of detonation, linearly.  And again, there's no atmosphere in which that energy can propagate through matter (air molecules, etc.), and a lot of the radiation isn't visible to the naked eye.  Furthermore, in the vacuum of space, the detonating material expands so quickly that the major visible portion of the explosion would be over and done in a fraction of a second.  Maybe a flash of intense blue light, like lightning or a bulb on one of those old-style cameras, but that's all.  You wouldn't have a fireball or anything like that unless you were mucking around in a Jovian atmosphere...or perhaps a nebula with the right density and composition. 



In space, a big boom by our terrestrial standards is not so big a boom after all.  Granted, in this context, that boom is directly impacting a ship's hull or energy shields.  You'd have contact transference, and that can do a lot of damage (especially if the warhead is designed with some kind of tamper that channels the energy in one direction...like a shaped charge on conventional explosives).  But a starship won't take any real area-of-effect or "splash" damage from a torpedo in space unless it's very, very close...maybe forty kilometers or so (assuming the yield is about 60 megatons).  And that range is akin to almost touching noses, as far as space combat is concerned.  Typical engagements are going to be at thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers, minimum.  Space is vast.

One thing I've always scratched my head at with Trek is the whole concept of ships not (frequently) using ECM or point-defense systems to shoot down enemy torpedoes/missiles.  It really makes a lot of sense.  You don't want one of those things hitting you, especially if your shields are down.  And since most of the uses of torpedoes we've seen in the shows have been at sublight speeds anyway (if they were being fired at FTL velocity instead of using "warp sustainer" systems while the ship was at warp, we wouldn't be able to see 'em leave the tubes), you'd think there would be more practical, aggressive, and active anti-"vampire" systems in place.  And don't give me that whole, "Well, it's really hard to hit them in flight" argument, because it's crap.  I find it hard to believe you can build a super-accurate guidance system for a torpdeo, but not a countermeasure for it.  Especially given that energy weapons with pinpoint accuracy are a dime a dozen in the Trekverse.  They make perfect point-defense systems, by definition.

Whatever.  It's a television show.  Rest assured, Excalibur won't take any of my spotty real-world physics into account.  It's a game, and games are supposed to be fun.  That means big, familiar explosions and sound effects and the whole wonderful mess.

 :P


~Josh F.

Well put sir.  The hole ECM thing was discussed before.  We really don't see ECM is any of the shows.  Only in 11 do we see phasers used as interceptors.  Good concept.

As for neutrinos, particle tests are being done to see if neutrinos effect the position of particles while at rest, or undisturbed.  Since we can collide particles together and break them into there individual components, the so called neutrinos seem to propagate the basis for particle/wave duality with respect to there behavior.   This would undermind your statement, however this is good stuff to chat about.  And real physics would blow up everything Star Trek is about anyway.  So, enjoy the Trek Tech.
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2011, 02:25:53 AM »
I would like to note that we have seen ECM used in Trek before. In TWoK, Khan jammed Dr. Marcus' signal from the Genesis station with equipment on the Reliant, and we've seen communication jamming before, as well as sensor jamming. We've even seen the former in wartime: DS9 "Sacrifice of Angels" the Dominion fleet caused problems with Starfleet coordination by jamming their communications frequencies, necessitating O'Brien to work on overcoming it (though engineers and comm. officers on every ship in the fleet were probably working on the problem simultaneously). We've seen plenty of different instances where sensors were jammed or things were masked from sensors, as well.
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2011, 02:40:34 AM »
I would like to note that we have seen ECM used in Trek before. In TWoK, Khan jammed Dr. Marcus' signal from the Genesis station with equipment on the Reliant, and we've seen communication jamming before, as well as sensor jamming. We've even seen the former in wartime: DS9 "Sacrifice of Angels" the Dominion fleet caused problems with Starfleet coordination by jamming their communications frequencies, necessitating O'Brien to work on overcoming it (though engineers and comm. officers on every ship in the fleet were probably working on the problem simultaneously). We've seen plenty of different instances where sensors were jammed or things were masked from sensors, as well.

Ahh,

Yes, the comm jammer.  Yes, we do see that.  I was referencing interceptor style missile based defenses.  But, yes, you are quite right.
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Offline Josh F

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2011, 10:48:27 AM »
As for neutrinos, particle tests are being done to see if neutrinos effect the position of particles while at rest, or undisturbed.  Since we can collide particles together and break them into there individual components, the so called neutrinos seem to propagate the basis for particle/wave duality with respect to there behavior.   This would undermind your statement, however this is good stuff to chat about.

I didn't say they did not have any effect, just that the 60% neutrino emissions from an antimatter detonation in vacuum wouldn't have a great deal of negative or harmful effect on a starship, thus leaving about 40% worth (give or take) of thermal radiation to cause the greater part of the damage.  And until they can show me proof that neutrinos are fiddling wit' me subatomics...

 :)


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Offline Poseidon

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Re: torpedo yealds
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2011, 02:51:03 PM »
I didn't say they did not have any effect, just that the 60% neutrino emissions from an antimatter detonation in vacuum wouldn't have a great deal of negative or harmful effect on a starship, thus leaving about 40% worth (give or take) of thermal radiation to cause the greater part of the damage.  And until they can show me proof that neutrinos are fiddling wit' me subatomics...

 :)


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Good point.  I buy that!  I agree with the yields to damage rio as well.  We are talking about photon/quantum torpedoes.  Disruptors, plasma based, electro based, matter fusion based, ect. ect. ect. are different and have different ways they damage buy there yields.  Since we are talking about photon/quantum torpedoes, this rio is good.  Now the types of torpedoes (i.e. semi homing, ranged detonation, ect.) are a different matter.  That gets rather involved.  I am not going into that.  I also will not discuss other weapon types as well.  That is a trade secret.   :P
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