Author Topic: regarding phasers  (Read 966 times)

Offline joe5

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regarding phasers
« on: July 08, 2011, 12:40:59 AM »

re watching voyager and next gen i have noticed that while phrases are seen using long bursts for drilling and the like, during combat they are always fired using short bursts.
however in most of the games i have noticed that people are enouriged to use long single bursts in combat. is this an error or was their some other part of the show where the purpose of long bursts is explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuOsX4EUwyo (1:10)

Offline Atlantisbase

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 01:14:08 AM »
I assume you're talking about phasers in Bridge Commander (since I believe the only two games where you can actually control discharge time are BC and Legacy). As I recall phasers in stock BC were pretty weak so you were kind of forced to use prolonged fire. As far as the show goes, I can't recall if there is ever an on screen justification for short vs. long but there are probably considerations we can assume like overheating, energy buffering, the ability of the computer to get a target lock, etc. It's also never stated how damage from a phaser is delivered. That is, if a phaser does the bulk of its damage in the moment of impact then short bursts make more sense, but if it delivers constant or increasing damage over time then longer bursts make sense. Perhaps both cases are true and applicable in different scenarios. I think it ultimately comes down to gameplay mechanics and balance taking priority over confomity.

Offline joe5

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 02:27:20 AM »
maby phaser beems have a sort of wave front that does significantly more damage than the main beam. so that for precision work you would want long beems (like for drilling or attacking sub systems) and for damage purposes you would want to fire shorter bursts.

Offline Aresius

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2011, 04:55:27 AM »
I tend to believe it's something like shock.
Let me give you an analogy: If youn want to punch someone, the most logical thing you do is hit him straight on and push the fist further and further even after you already hit him. That way, you push him away. You deliver your force for the entire duration of the punch fromt he moment you make contact onwards, which leads to the tissue "forming around" the fist - the punch does not hurt very much (and I know many of you now think that's bogus, but read onwards). A good and solid hit like that would be perfect for drilling as you carve your way through.

An alternative that comes from martial arts is the pressured punch. You punch him, but the second you make contact, you retract the fist again. Means the entire momentum and the entire force has to be transmitted in this split second, and that does hurt far more, because the tissue does not have time to react and is literally paralysed. That'd be a perfect shot against shields. Shocking them, overloading them with brief bursts.

Offline MajorD

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2011, 06:18:22 AM »
re watching voyager and next gen i have noticed that while phrases are seen using long bursts for drilling and the like, during combat they are always fired using short bursts.
however in most of the games i have noticed that people are enouriged to use long single bursts in combat. is this an error or was their some other part of the show where the purpose of long bursts is explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuOsX4EUwyo (1:10)

In space, specifically? It's a mistake, because shots miss in Trek, and the idea behind short shots is it helps control wasted energy in misses. It's also why shots on the ground tend to be brief.
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Offline AricwithanA

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2011, 09:42:46 PM »
In space, specifically? It's a mistake, because shots miss in Trek, and the idea behind short shots is it helps control wasted energy in misses. It's also why shots on the ground tend to be brief.

On the ground though, ive always wondered.....if I just set the phaser to full power, hold the button and spin in circles....isnt that like having a hundred foot-pluss lightsaber vaporizing anything in its path?  Isnt that more power efficient since the fight wont last as long with the majority of shots missing?  It always seems so many phaser fights between people (not ships) isnt very strategic or make full use of the trek tech.
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Offline joe5

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2011, 05:10:04 AM »
this was in space. voyager was fighting the kason

Offline MajorD

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 12:35:19 AM »
On the ground though, ive always wondered.....if I just set the phaser to full power, hold the button and spin in circles....isnt that like having a hundred foot-pluss lightsaber vaporizing anything in its path?  Isnt that more power efficient since the fight wont last as long with the majority of shots missing?  It always seems so many phaser fights between people (not ships) isnt very strategic or make full use of the trek tech.
Yeah, it's a big question. In another thread I think I figured out a couple reasons they don't sweep the beams. The thing is, we've seen that beams can be swept, by accident, so it's definitely possible.

The main reason is energy capacity. I came up with a table of fire duration at certain settings, it's all arbitrary except for having its starting point with a bit of canon. You don't have to take this as truth. Anyway, the duration at max vaporize is something like 20 seconds. That means, with a three second sweep, you can only do that 6.6 times. That's actually really good if you compare it to a grenade launcher, but if that's your only side arm, you're going to be unarmed in short order if you keep firing like that. You also have to consider that on the a low kill setting, in my chart you get several continuous weeks of fire time.

The next aspect was, when phasers do damage they linger on the target for a second. I was thinking that a full vaporize setting would have to be used for effective sweeping because a very brief contact would result in a lower level of damage. If you swept with a kill setting, it might cause only superficial damage. That's just another guess.

The last one is training. Sweeping is probably considered reckless, in additional to wasteful. I came up with an explanation for why and how phasers fire off-axis, and why they fire in brief bursts. Fed training seems to revolve around knowing exactly where your target is, and putting energy right on that target.

However, the biggest objection should be, why haven't we seen a dedicated sweeping weapon in support? The previous training issue covers that for Starfleet, kind of, but for Klingons, or Romulans, or Cardassians they wouldn't care about collateral damage. In a city they might care, because a building falling on you is bad, but if my idea of setting being separate from power level is right, a sweeping support weapon set to stun with huge power could be made, and it would kill just fine without effecting inanimate objects at all. Except for some thermal effect.
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Offline Warsome

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2011, 01:45:12 AM »
The power cells in hand phasors work on the same power cells as a tricorder although they are larger in a phaser.  Now think about this for one moment.  A Tricorder can use up all its memory if the user decides to upload the entire data to the computer in an emergency dump a maximum of two times and a tricorder has a maximum battery life of 18 hours.  So it is safe to assume that officers would be carefull not to waste energy during combat.  What use is a phaser weapon after the battery runs out.

A type I and type II phaser has an output of 10 kw maximum per burst compared to Galaxy Class type X which has an output of 5100 kw per emiter segment, there are 200 emiter segments on the upper dorsal of the saucer section. Each emiter segment is 3.25L * 2.45H * 1.25W meters in size.

Phasers work be delivering rapid pulses of charged nadion particles down a tightly focused beam.  Nadion particles are meant to interact with subatomic nuclei generating thermodynamic properties.  Much like microwaves reacting with water molecules.  Phasers can be calibrated to deliver energy, conduct scans, stun, kill or vapourize a target.  The maximum fire time for a hand held phasor or a rifle is 1.75 seconds on average but that can be overidden by user input commands.

This would suggest that a phaser can be effective for long bursts but there is a risk of burning out the emitters  :D

Offline MajorD

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2011, 06:01:06 AM »
I don't recall any of what you've written to be canon.
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2011, 12:24:36 AM »
He's pulling it from the TNG:TM, which is a good 'semi-canon' source when used in support of canon materials, but it has errors. For example: We know that Federation phaser rifles are capable of sustained megawatt-range continuous beam discharges for extended periods (a minute or more), because Geordi and Data tested a Romulan replica of a Federation phaser rifle in TNG "The Mind's Eye" by test-firing it with a continuous beam with an output of a little over 1 MW for around a minute. The weapon was a Romulan-built replica, but it was a near-perfect copy, with only a minor emitter crystal efficiency difference, and the only give-away coming from the telltale traces left by the power charging method. The performance was otherwise within specs for a standard Federation Type-III phaser rifle.

Now, as for the actual performance of the Type-III rifle, that was probably the equivalent of taking an M-16, attaching an over-sized box magazine, putting it on a mount and firing it continuously on full-auto. You're not going to do that in combat, because it wastes 'ammo', and just causes all sorts of unnecessary, and potentially dangerous collateral damage. It's also hard on the equipment.

In actual, real-world combat, not even support gunners with Squad Automatic Weapons or Light Machine Guns spray and pray. Trained support gunners still fire in bursts in most situations. Support gunners in Trek would have a little more leeway because they won't run out of ammo as quickly, but the concern is still there, as well as wear on the equipment. Now, of course, there are times when you do just want to obliterate an area, but an air burst from a photon grenade would be a more effective weapon choice than a phaser.

It's also worth noting that Trek phasers can be set to wide-beam for area-effect. This will have limited utility, particularly over large areas and/or extended ranges, because of the inverse squared law, but Tuvok demonstrated how it can make a very effective room sweeper in that one episode where he stunned the entire bridge with a Type-II phaser (can't remember the name off-hand).



When it comes to starship combat, you have all the concerns of energy usage and equipment wear, but you also have concerns about time-on-target, and others. Spray-and-pray with phaser beams in space is hopelessly inefficient because of the distances involved. Short, precise hits are far more efficient, and also reduce the chance of friendly fire incidents (also a factor for ground-force phasers). There is also the concern of Joules vs Watts. A low-powered beam can deliver the same amount of energy (Joules) over an extended period of time, but it won't be as effective as a short, high-energy burst delivering the same amount of energy over a short period of time, because the energy-per-second (Watts) will be lower. It's the difference between standing in the sun collecting rays for 15 minutes, and having that same energy delivered to you in 15 milliseconds. Spread over 15 minutes time, you'll get a tan, or maybe a light sunburn, but delivered in 15 miliseconds you will be severely burned. The same applies to phasers.

The way Trek shields work also makes high-wattage blasts much more effective against shields because, per the TNG:TM (which matches what we see on-screen), shields maintain a relatively low-level continuous protective field around the ship, a field strength that they can sustain for what is effectively an indefinite time (not factoring in extended wear on the equipment, etc.). When weapons fire strikes the shield, the generators then spike their output several orders of magnitude above their sustained output, while also concentrating field strength around the point of impact. This draws energy from the reserves, and also causes the generators to overheat;  the spike can only be sustained for very brief periods (<1 second at maximum spiked output, with longer durations for lower output spikes) before the generators overheat themselves and have to reduce power or shut down to avoid melting themselves. This leaves a brief but notable window when the weapons first hit where only a relatively small percentage of the total energy blast is going to be deflected by the sustainable shield strength, allowing a very brief instant of 'bleed-through' damage before the shields spike up. A short, high-wattage blast will deliver much more energy to the target in that brief window, causing more bleed-through damage, than a lower-wattage sustained blast. The high-wattage blast will also cause more wear on the shield generators, forcing them to spike higher and inundate themselves with more waste heat, making them more prone to overloading.


Also, the nature of how phaser arrays work also explains the utility of a short beam vs a sustained beam in combat. As the glowy charge moves across the length of the array, we're actually seeing each emitter individually discharge into a collected energy blast that is directed at the target at the final emission point, allowing for the entire array to contribute to a much more powerful blast than a single array segment could generate on its own (the limitation appears to be not with the emitter crystals that we see on top, that refine and direct the phaser energy, but the components underneath each crystal that actually convert the raw EPS plasma energy into phaser energy). This collected blast would be discharged in the same amount of time that each segment discharges into the collected pool (or the amount of time the glow effect takes to pass over an individual emitter segment), which would be a pretty short span of time, usually significantly less than a second. A beam sustained afterward, which usually only has a few emitters around the emission point glowing and so only a few emitters actually contributing to the beam, would simply not be able to match the power of the full array discharge, making sustained beams far less effective in combat, and explaining why we almost never see sustained beams in combat and usually only see them used for relatively low-power utility activities (drilling precise holes in planets or asteroids, etc.). The only exception to this is in TNG "Best of Both Worlds" when the E-D was sustaining a beam that was cycling through frequencies trying to disrupt a Borg holding beam, and even then, multiple rapid pulses can be seen passing across the array while the beam is still discharging, meaning that the sustained beam was actually pulsing between high and low wattage during the event. There is also a partial exception to this in DS9 "What You Leave Behind" when one of the Galaxies in the background can be seen to fire its main dorsal array with a large glow effect that travels across the array to the emission point, and is then sustained very briefly after the beam is discharged, instead of passing into the emission point as we see with all other phaser operations.
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Offline Warsome

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 02:38:59 PM »
10kW is equal to 0.01mW, I converted the values over because we rarely see power measured in the mW range in day to day lift.
There are errors in my writing's before, but writing something technical at nearly 2am is always a bad idea :D I fully agree with Ilithi_Dragon.

Offline Black Patriot

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 05:27:34 PM »
10kW is equal to 0.01mW, I converted the values over because we rarely see power measured in the mW range in day to day lift.
There are errors in my writing's before, but writing something technical at nearly 2am is always a bad idea :D I fully agree with Ilithi_Dragon.

mW is milliwatt, which is 0.001 W, MW is megawatt, which is 1,000,000 W, something to keep in mind. I know SI units can be confusing at times, like why kW is acceptable when it should be KW all the time.
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Offline Warsome

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 06:02:24 PM »
in that case the values should be MW and kW, my mistake.  But the values are still correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 06:19:15 PM by Warsome »

Offline joe5

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2011, 08:49:08 AM »
so bursts against a sheided target and long beams against soft targets

Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2011, 09:24:11 AM »
Pretty much. There are some situations where sustained, low-duration beams might be preferable, but nine times out of ten, delivering energy as quickly as you can in as dense a pulse as you can is preferable, because it will be more effective and inflict more damage.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2011, 01:16:18 PM »
Here's the fire duration chart someone was nice enough to work out for me.
http://www.stexcalibur.com/forum/index.php/topic,4615.msg90142.html#msg90142

Quote
Also, I tried coming up with a power curve for phasers, I didn't know the math and got some help. Perhaps someone here with the proper math background can assist.
Quote

    88,571.43 seconds, Setting 6 of 16
    1,476.19 seconds, Setting 11 of 16

    An exponential fit will give you a fit like this:
    T=c*e^(-a*N)
    The given numbers give the following fit values:
    a=0.82
    c=12052449.86

    e=the mathetmatical constant e
    c=the constant that gets modified by the exponential
    a=factor that decides how fast the firing time drops when increasing setting. Higher number means a faster drop.

    So the results are thus:

       1. 5314287.60
       2. 2343229.22
       3. 1033200.23
       4. 455569.05
       5. 200874.10
       6. 88571.43
       7. 39053.81
       8. 17220.00
       9. 7592.81
      10. 3347.90
      11. 1476.19
      12. 650.90
      13. 287.00
      14. 126.55
      15. 55.80
      16. 24.60


88,571 seconds of fire is at 1.05 MW out of 9.3e10 joules. If I didn't mess up, then that's enough energy to heat about 1 gallon 131 degrees Fahrenheit in one second.
Humans start hot, at 90 whatever degrees F, so it would be enough to kill a person when you add the additional 131. It's even more deadly when you consider how focused that energy can be, rather than spread evenly over a whole gallon of flesh.
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2011, 06:34:29 PM »
To put that 1.05 MW into another perspective: The 120mm main gun of an M1 Abrams firing an M829A3 DU APFSDS round has a kinetic energy of approximately 30 megajoules out of the barrel. This puts a Federation Type-3 phaser rifle into the same firepower range as the main gun of a modern Main Battle Tank.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 10:38:22 AM »
Well, 30 phasers firing at once would equal that. :) It's actually much closer to the round fired by the A-10 from it's GAU-8, a 30mm cannon firing depleted uranium bullets. Then again, its energy is delivered in the space of a microsecond, not over a full second like a phaser would. That makes the phaser much less effective... at that setting.
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Offline Ilithi_Dragon

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Re: regarding phasers
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 11:02:00 AM »
Well, 30 phasers firing at once would equal that. :) It's actually much closer to the round fired by the A-10 from it's GAU-8, a 30mm cannon firing depleted uranium bullets. Then again, its energy is delivered in the space of a microsecond, not over a full second like a phaser would. That makes the phaser much less effective... at that setting.

Bear in mind that that 1.05 MW was a mid-range setting. A high-range setting would be in the range of the M256 120mm cannon's firepower.
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