Author Topic: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.  (Read 3252 times)

Offline Statius

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Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« on: June 20, 2011, 09:40:00 AM »
Like everyone here, I'm interested in Excalibur because it aims to offer an immersive, canon-inspired experience. Some of us even spend excessive times thinking about starship HPs. But since so many blanks are left in the show figuring these out as a part of a reasonable, well ordered system is difficult. The rest of this post will be examining why I think the Negh'Var may have as many as forty disruptor emplacements of varying sizes. Is this number excessive? It seems so next to the numbers of phaser arrays on the modern federation ships, but they are, in turn, composed of tens, or even hundreds of individual emitters.

@Devs: It may be presumptuous to think this will be any help; nevertheless I hope it may in someway, even as a whetstone.

As always we ought to begin with the screen evidence. The first appearance as the sometimes called "VoodieH" (sp?) in TNG:AGT shows as many as ten weapon emplacements in use. Six different locations on the head fire disruptor bolts; three on either side, one a little farther forward, one a little farther back, and one in between. One fires from the port side of the 'neck'. One fires from the ventral side of the aft section. Each of the wingtips also fires. See the picture below.



The next on screen appearance is as the actual Negh'Var  in DS9: WofW, with it two new large disruptors, but besides that, no new weapons. It needs no introduction. This gives us two more emplacements.



Finally in VOY: Endgame we see a few more weapons in action. It fires from a location on the bow of the head of the ship, slightly towards the starboard side, but lower than where the bolts were fired in AGT. It also fires a beam from one the large weapons pods. This gives us, ignoring errors, one more emplacement, for a total of thirteen on-screen, non-mirror universe, weapon emplacement.



Here are today's results: 12-13 weapon emplacements based on televised evidence.



Tomorrow, I will continue this investigation, looking at the evidence from the models and the production sketch by Rick Sternbach.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 07:51:32 PM by Mark »
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Offline Einherjar

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 04:36:03 PM »
Remove the picture that requires a password.

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Offline Statius

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 05:50:05 PM »
I linked it from my university account, which explains why it asks for a password. Too late to modify myself. Perhaps the one of the developers could do so?
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Offline L.

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2011, 08:34:48 PM »
Looking at that Vorcha concept art in the other thread it seems all the little panels are beam outputs. I'm just guessing here but we could group the outlets together so those in the same immediate area use the same power/recharge/cooldown meter, so only one can fire at a time.

We're going to have to for Fed ships as multiple phaser arrays are always in sight of the target but ships have only head enough power to fire 2 simultaneously, 3 at the most.

Offline Statius

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2011, 09:20:59 PM »
Looking at that Vorcha concept art in the other thread it seems all the little panels are beam outputs. I'm just guessing here but we could group the outlets together so those in the same immediate area use the same power/recharge/cooldown meter, so only one can fire at a time.

We're going to have to for Fed ships as multiple phaser arrays are always in sight of the target but ships have only head enough power to fire 2 simultaneously, 3 at the most.

The concept art does indeed show that the 'phaser trapezoids' are the output (you're spoiling my next post :p !). It might also be the case that each of these 'trapezoid emitters' (as per the alternate head concept art), as Bernbach calls them has a cool down time so that while a central power system still provides power for the other to fire, allowing for constant fire from an arc. In the case of the ten emitters on the head of the Negh'Var might be broken many as six or even as few as two groups.  On each side there are five emitters, two groups of two close together and single emitter on the aft side. This could be three groups a side, or perhaps the aft shares in the power of those closest to it, thus two groups, or even all five per side share in one power source.

On the point of putting a maximum on weapons, this sound pretty reasonable. But might it also be possible to allow for firing from more arcs at the likelihood of 'blowing out the fuses'? There could be an output limit which if surpassed causes the arrays, capacitors, EPS conduits etc, to overload and cause damage. It might achieve the same thing, but a little more organically and with a little more flexibility.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 04:18:04 AM »
Here are all of my Klingon ship pictures.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v334/MajorD/Star%20Trek/Klingons/

Looking at that Vorcha concept art in the other thread it seems all the little panels are beam outputs. I'm just guessing here but we could group the outlets together so those in the same immediate area use the same power/recharge/cooldown meter, so only one can fire at a time.

We're going to have to for Fed ships as multiple phaser arrays are always in sight of the target but ships have only head enough power to fire 2 simultaneously, 3 at the most.
That would defeat the purpose of having more than one emitter, making it so there might as well be a single weapon with the same arc. They really need variable firing modes, so they can target independently against swarms of targets, or fire sequentially. There should even be an option to just fire everything at once. Broadside for the win.
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Offline Aresius

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2011, 04:25:05 AM »
You might argue that 1 is the same as 4 or 5. Especially 5 seems to be particularly close to 1.
Then again, they might gave arranged the entire bow with a disruptor array that can fire bolts. Anyway, nice work on the digging.

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 04:53:58 AM »
Looking at that Vorcha concept art in the other thread it seems all the little panels are beam outputs. I'm just guessing here but we could group the outlets together so those in the same immediate area use the same power/recharge/cooldown meter, so only one can fire at a time.

We're going to have to for Fed ships as multiple phaser arrays are always in sight of the target but ships have only head enough power to fire 2 simultaneously, 3 at the most.

That sir is not canon. 

You are correct that the power required would be high, but there are several instances where the Enterprise fired multiple phaser arrays at the same time.  It becomes a power draw issue.  Then again, pouring power into the phaser system should be possible, however you would draw power from other systems once your pooled power output is maxed. 
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Offline Statius

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 05:52:47 AM »
Thank you for the use of the pictures MajorD!

PART II: Extrapolation from model and production evidence; relationship to the screen evidence.


I'd like to begin by looking at the production sketch of the Negh'Var/Voodieh. As Lewis mentioned above,it notes the location of the weapons on the Voodieh.



It marks the 'phaser emitters', the 'outboard' disruptor cannons, and the main disruptor cannon.
The so-called 'phaser emitters' are the trapezoidal structures which line the edge of the 'head', number ten in total, and there are two on the aft section, visible from the top.

This image shows what Sternbach means by 'phaser trapezoids:



And again we can see these emitters in with the distinct yellow paint job in the this shot of the Voodieh:



And the same concept with the Vor'Cha, the trapezoidal shape is clearly visible:



And on the rear. I've circled the emitters:



Besides this, the location of the main disruptor cannon and the two cannons on the wingtips (presuming they are not two on each wing, which is possible if we look closely at the model) are obvious, and we end up with fifteen disruptors on the AGT version, and the two more, totalling seventeen large disruptors on the Negh'Var proper:


 
This is all fine and well but if we recall the images from AGT above, two individual weapons are not accounted for, the port 'neck' disruptor and the ventral aft section disruptor. Nor is the odd beam from Endgame accounted for. We are forced to look a little deeper into the models. This will actually reveal more than we are looking for. I will post about this next.
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Offline Statius

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 10:03:24 AM »
Now we are going to have to get a little speculative, but this is necessary. We are looking for any weapon emplacements on the neck and ventral section. Thankfully there are many good pictures from the Christie's auction, and the Negh'Var has been captured beautifully.

First let's look at the weapons in question in action:



The neck cannon seems to be just below the aft end of the tall section of the neck. Not much is visible on the AGT model:



No visible weapon, hardly any discernible bumps or greebles, besides the sensors which happen to be farther to the front, let alone any yellow trapezoids. So let's turn to the Negh'Var model:



Notice that there are boxes with notches, one of which is perhaps in the appropriate spot for the port neck disruptor. These notches do stick out a little:

.

If this is indeed the case we might count all of these notches, three per side, two aft of the cargo bay door, one fore. There are also notches, albeit slightly different and yellow (the original colour of the disruporemitters) two facing forward, and perhaps two facing rear boxes with grey notches.



The 'phaser trapezoids' are now grey on this updated model, but and whole model seems to be more detailed, although it may simply be lighting. There are however more yellow notches and panels on the model as can be seen all along the model. Should we count some of these as disruptors too? They fore yellow notches on the wing look quite 'intentional' and are elevated on a slightly larger panel of body colour; they are meant to have some prominence. Let us count those in. The large yellow panels differ in shape, they are square rather than rectangular, and do not protrude as far as the larger emitters, nor as far as the smaller 'neck' and wing notches. Let's rule them out. But what of these:



As said in the picture, the bridge notches are very similar in shape to, if not the same as, the neck notches. Some of these notches along the vertical plane of the head are also longer, like the emitters immediately above them. They could be sensors, communication arrays or any other system, but given the similarity to what is our best estimate for the neck cannon from AGT, we can reasonably count them in as emitters, if we are looking for a maximum weapon count. Moreover, they do sport the yellow of the AGT weapons, which may be a hint, though hardly proof.

Alongside these numerous small disruptors emitters, if they are such are also other, more traditional weapon systems, four twin-disruptor cannons. The first two are generally well known:



The second two I recently discovered hiding under the bridge tower:



Of the weapons counted in this round, apart from the seventeen counted in the previous post we can count, at the upper limit two large twin disruptor cannons, two small twin disruptor cannons, ten small disruptor emitters on the neck and wings and aft, four small disruptor emitters on the bridge module (there are more yellow notches but they are smaller and more irregular), and perhaps four small emitters on the vertical plane of the head's 'crest'. That gives us twenty single small emplacements, eight twin-emplacement of the 'older' style, as a reasonable upper limit.



A total, so far of 45 weapon emplacements, 53 if we count the twin-disruptors as two.

Tomorrow, in a final installment I will looks at the ventral weapons





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Offline Statius

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2011, 10:06:16 AM »
Note, in the third picture of my last post I pointed to one of senors rather than the 'notch', it is infact, further to the right, near the wing.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2011, 11:01:02 AM »
Oh, wow, I've never noticed the bridge turrets! They're in just as bad a spot as the wing turrets, but it does help fix the limitations of the wing turrets.

The secondary details as weapons are something I would ignore. Random weapon firing locations are frequent in the show, and are merely placed on prominent details, or centered in some way that doesn't make sense. Some of those yellow details are actually windows, if not most or all. Most importantly, consider the coverage the ship already has with the bow phasers.

The Negh'var can fire forward, backward, and up with great ease. It can also fire down with some effect but has a worsening blind spot the further away you go. What it really needs are underwing turrets, and ventrally mirrored phaser arrays like the Vor'Cha.

If I were over hauling the weapons completely it would have a top and bottom main disruptor pods with turreted emitters, four double barrel disruptor turrets on the wing tip tallons where the fixed disruptors are. two centrally mounted dorsal double disruptor turrets, four more turrets on the bow wings dorsally and ventrally. It would still have the three fixed disruptors, and it would get a 30 burst torpedo tube in the bow where the concept has a tube. Finally, it's aft armement would be two ventral turrets with the second turret lower so it can fire over the rearmost turret. Four more turrets on the rear of the wings, placed top and bottom, outward from the impulse engines.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 11:25:37 AM by MajorD »
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Offline L.

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 04:58:44 PM »
That sir is not canon. 

You are correct that the power required would be high, but there are several instances where the Enterprise fired multiple phaser arrays at the same time.  It becomes a power draw issue.  Then again, pouring power into the phaser system should be possible, however you would draw power from other systems once your pooled power output is maxed.

The Intrepid has only ever fired 2 phasers at once, so has the Galaxy. There were 2 occasions when the Galaxy (lysians) and Sovereign (scimitar) fired multiple phasers in succession, but not simultaneously.

Offline Statius

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 06:32:23 PM »
The Intrepid has only ever fired 2 phasers at once, so has the Galaxy. There were 2 occasions when the Galaxy (lysians) and Sovereign (scimitar) fired multiple phasers in succession, but not simultaneously.

What about the Enterprise in best of Both Worlds? It fired three arrays at once.



@MajorD: I agree that it would be nice if it had matching ventral emitters, but alas, it has them not. As for those other details, I don't think they are all windows. The Negh'Var has very few windows. We'll have to think through it some more.
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Offline L.

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2011, 07:19:28 PM »
What about the Enterprise in best of Both Worlds? It fired three arrays at once.


So then the max is 3.

Offline Black Patriot

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 07:25:38 PM »
It also appears to be firing from the middle of the nacelle pylon, where there isn't a phaser strip. And let's not mention the phaser beam coming out of the torpedo launcher... (unless it's coming from the port nacelle pylon, which is still inaccurate)
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Offline Mark

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 07:46:24 PM »
It also appears to be firing from the middle of the nacelle pylon, where there isn't a phaser strip. And let's not mention the phaser beam coming out of the torpedo launcher... (unless it's coming from the port nacelle pylon, which is still inaccurate)

Well said  :arms:

Offline Statius

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 08:39:07 PM »
It also appears to be firing from the middle of the nacelle pylon, where there isn't a phaser strip. And let's not mention the phaser beam coming out of the torpedo launcher... (unless it's coming from the port nacelle pylon, which is still inaccurate)

There are however phaser strips on the pylons near enough to account for such beams; even if this was poorly executed, it doesn't invalidate it the intent to show the Enterprise "giving everything she's got".

Here is the sequence step by step for anyone interested.





So it would seem three arrays firing at once is the most we have seen. But they do vary in size. If those three arrays can fire simultaneously, why not all four small arrays on the aft end (provided they each had something to shoot at, either directly aft or something above and below)?

On the same point (getting further from the Negh'Var!) here are some sequences from the Dominion:

First a Galaxy-class vessel and its sister ship attack; the first Galaxy with first two beams from one array and then what seems to be from two different arrays, though it is not perfectly clear:



Second, A Galaxy-class vessel firing one beam from an array, with what seems to be from half convergence:



And third, the same vessel with what appears full convergence:



Is debatable as to how many emitters are actually dischagred; perhaps as many between the points of convergence, or as many as are illuminated and they simply travel acrooss the converging distance. Either way, as many emitters should be able to be discharged as the maximum number of dishchargable emitters on the main arras, provided neither of the main arrays were fired. Wouldn't that be a logical lowest end maximum?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 09:17:10 PM by Statius »
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2011, 01:55:17 AM »
I have Galaxy pictures too. They're not all uploaded, but I do have one I made which shows the blind spots. I also have Voyager firing and a top down thing I made showing it's extent of fire. Unfortunately I don't have time to do much right now.

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Offline Poseidon

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Re: Negh'Var Weapons: A discussion.
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2011, 03:59:50 AM »
There are however phaser strips on the pylons near enough to account for such beams; even if this was poorly executed, it doesn't invalidate it the intent to show the Enterprise "giving everything she's got".

Here is the sequence step by step for anyone interested.





So it would seem three arrays firing at once is the most we have seen. But they do vary in size. If those three arrays can fire simultaneously, why not all four small arrays on the aft end (provided they each had something to shoot at, either directly aft or something above and below)?

On the same point (getting further from the Negh'Var!) here are some sequences from the Dominion:

First a Galaxy-class vessel and its sister ship attack; the first Galaxy with first two beams from one array and then what seems to be from two different arrays, though it is not perfectly clear:



Second, A Galaxy-class vessel firing one beam from an array, with what seems to be from half convergence:



And third, the same vessel with what appears full convergence:



Is debatable as to how many emitters are actually dischagred; perhaps as many between the points of convergence, or as many as are illuminated and they simply travel acrooss the converging distance. Either way, as many emitters should be able to be discharged as the maximum number of dishchargable emitters on the main arras, provided neither of the main arrays were fired. Wouldn't that be a logical lowest end maximum?

Certainly debatable. 

But there are more episodes than this showing multiple phaser discharges.  3 is not the limit as shown.  There are photons being fired as well.  This represents all of the forward firing phasers within the forward arc to be discharged.  At least, that does appear to be the way things appear.  Spreading out the weapons discharges would reduce over all energy input/damage done by each weapon, or they are dumping everything (all available power) into the phaser (weapons) array/emitters.  There does appear that just below the torpedo launcher, is a phaser emitter.  If it is an array or an emitter, the result is the same.  It is not a question of how many phasers can be fired at once, rather it is a question of how much power can you give to every phaser emitter/array to discharge.

Does anyone here remember watching Nemisis???  Look at the Enterprise!  At least 5 arrays/emitters are being discharged at once while she was shooting in the dark!  Those phaser bursts are all simultaneous.  They are discharged from the same instance, but not at the exact same time.  Understand that you can not fire a phaser and recharge it to fire within a seconds.  So, it is not about a limit to what can be fired, but a limit to power output to the weapons the ship can handle.

More food for thought.......
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 04:08:49 AM by Poseidon »
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