A Repectful "Multi Player" Plea to the Devs.

[strike277]

Instead of the annoying "Will there be Multi player" question that is asked time and time again. I thought I would put forth the reasons that it should. Now please understand I do not claim to know how easy or difficult any of this would be, or even a grain of knowledge of how to do it. But I do know it's possible as I've seen similar features included in other games.

We are, by our nature , social animals.  Be it virtually or personal, social interaction by humans is ingrained into our being. For most of us, sharing an experience with another is far more enjoyable then not. With a gem the likes of Excalibur it at it's core is a perfect machine to that end. It is also the perfect machine to bring to life what all Trekkies have dreamed of for years. Imagine if you will a room in your home (If you have this kind of room)or your basement or garage converted in to the Bridge of a star fleet  ship. Imagine if you will that that bridge is fully functional, and that every station on it can be manned and used by your closest friends with the same level of excited anticipation of exploration that you feel.  Imagine the maiden voyage of your own star ship. Yes, it's still in your garage, but with the huge HD flat screen tv mounted onto the wall in front of the helms station and  a couple of smaller ones strategically placed as a window or two, you would indeed be fooling your senses.  You would for all intents and purposes be on your bridge.    Now expand that to include other friends who do the same. Klingon, Romulan, ect...  This just scratches the surface of possibilities.  A virtual Star Fleet would certainly come to life.

Star Trek Online? Please ! It's a child's arcade game. Not the true engine of greatness that Excalibur could be. I implore  the devs, with all respect, if you haven't already or are not already are, take a very close and hard look at the possibilities that multi player would offer and seriously consider it as a feature. It would certainly make Excalibur a legend in it's own right.  If done right, it would certainly bring Star Trek to life !

Thank you

If you are not doing so   

[Black Patriot]

It's a nice thought, but it's simply too large a project to be finished in a reasonable timeframe. I think (devs feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) at the moment multiplayer can be added after the main project, but it's not a very high priority.

[strike277]

It's a nice thought, but it's simply too large a project to be finished in a reasonable timeframe. I think (devs feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) at the moment multiplayer can be added after the main project, but it's not a very high priority.

I am sure we would all be willing to wait for it to be added after wards. But the ability to do what I described above would certainly set a new standard for this type of Simulation. And it would bring thousands together in a common interest. It would bring Star Trek alive as never even imagined by Gene Roddenberry.  I hope it does happen. Even if it has to wait until after the Sim is released.

[BrioCyrain]

I think there was a similar "space simulation" game that used the "multi-station" approach, but many people found it impossible to beat since unlike the shows, trekkies don't seem to respond as fast as AI in some games. The difference level of skill in each player would make your ship forfeit, just because you watch the same show doesn't mean little Johnny(not refering to anyone IRL) who watched a few episodes of DS9 can man the phasers with deadly percision. As far as what some of those vids that used that multi-station game, sometimes it DOES SEEM better to have AI. I mean, we all know as far as efficiency, Data kicked butt in the show 

[Black Patriot]

I am sure we would all be willing to wait for it to be added after wards. But the ability to do what I described above would certainly set a new standard for this type of Simulation. And it would bring thousands together in a common interest. It would bring Star Trek alive as never even imagined by Gene Roddenberry.  I hope it does happen. Even if it has to wait until after the Sim is released.

Not sure what you mean by willing to wait, it would take quite a while to design and test even basic multiplayer, and that's not even getting started on multi-person interaction on the same ship (having different people at each station), so I think it'd be safe to say that no one is going to wait to play Excalibur just so the devs can add multiplayer, it will take at the very least several months of constant work to get a decent network setup just to do the basics of what you're talking about. It would certainly set a new standard, but you'll notice that no one else in the simulator community is moving towards that sort of setup, or if they are they're not doing it quickly, it's simply too much trouble for so little pay off.

I think there was a similar "space simulation" game that used the "multi-station" approach, but many people found it impossible to beat since unlike the shows, trekkies don't seem to respond as fast as AI in some games. The difference level of skill in each player would make your ship forfeit, just because you watch the same show doesn't mean little Johnny(not refering to anyone IRL) who watched a few episodes of DS9 can man the phasers with deadly percision. As far as what some of those vids that used that multi-station game, sometimes it DOES SEEM better to have AI. I mean, we all know as far as efficiency, Data kicked butt in the show 

You can get around that with smart AI assisting the human players, perhaps by setting a handicap or something like that, a pro player will play with no assistance, whereas a novice could play with the computer giving them enough hints to keep them competitive with the other players. Unfortunately that sort of AI setup is very difficult to achieve, again it's something that everyone in the gaming community would like to see, as it would be a huge step forward for MMOs and community gaming, but it's simply too difficult to do, especially on a network environment where all sorts of other issues can crop up (e.g. lag, stutter, drop outs).

[BrioCyrain]

You can get around that with smart AI assisting the human players, perhaps by setting a handicap or something like that, a pro player will play with no assistance, whereas a novice could play with the computer giving them enough hints to keep them competitive with the other players. Unfortunately that sort of AI setup is very difficult to achieve, again it's something that everyone in the gaming community would like to see, as it would be a huge step forward for MMOs and community gaming, but it's simply too difficult to do, especially on a network environment where all sorts of other issues can crop up (e.g. lag, stutter, drop outs).

Like some of the bigwigs like Carmack: True Multiplayer will have to wait til everyone has Super-Broadband and willing to use headsets, and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. We are still stuck with standard chat in some games, which would just be WAY too slow in a real Trek simulation.

"Johnny, fire the torpedoes!"

Johnny: "(typing symbol)"

(Ship blows up)

(Facepalm)

The world isn't ready for a true Simulator....yet.

[Black Patriot]

Like some of the bigwigs like Carmack: True Multiplayer will have to wait til everyone has Super-Broadband and willing to use headsets, and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. We are still stuck with standard chat in some games, which would just be WAY too slow in a real Trek simulation.

"Johnny, fire the torpedoes!"

Johnny: "(typing symbol)"

(Ship blows up)

(Facepalm)

The world isn't ready for a true Simulator....yet.

This is essentially the case for consumer grade simulators, the military can afford to have dedicated hardware and network connections for realtime simulators, but it's simply out of the reach of most of us, at least until we get terabit fiber connections.

[Aresius]

I like the idea. But apart from the problem of coding that, the obvious lack of time to implement such a vast concept, and the daring issue this has, if one has no friends nearby that would join him/her in such an endeavour on a regular basis, I'm most afraid that such a big bunch of code would seriously go beyond the scope of any computers capability.

@Brio: Sure, nobody has the same level of experience, the same view on how to operate a console, let alone a ship. But give a group of people some time get their characters right, and they will. They'll 'develope' a hierarchy between themselves when working on that 'bridge', they'll get to know the controls and interface better and react faster every time they play.
But as long as they work it out, accidentially blowing up the ship, may just happen... ^,_,^
So what? It's a game, you're not really dead.

[Poseidon]

Yea,

I don't think a multi player option will be there for release.  It will take a good modd to do it.  Further on, I would like to see this platform reach the MMOG level.  Problebly need high speed internet to do it, but I think it would be doable.  Would be nice to see that in the future.  I think it can be done!

[BrioCyrain]

I like the idea. But apart from the problem of coding that, the obvious lack of time to implement such a vast concept, and the daring issue this has, if one has no friends nearby that would join him/her in such an endeavour on a regular basis, I'm most afraid that such a big bunch of code would seriously go beyond the scope of any computers capability.

@Brio: Sure, nobody has the same level of experience, the same view on how to operate a console, let alone a ship. But give a group of people some time get their characters right, and they will. They'll 'develope' a hierarchy between themselves when working on that 'bridge', they'll get to know the controls and interface better and react faster every time they play.
But as long as they work it out, accidentially blowing up the ship, may just happen... ^,_,^
So what? It's a game, you're not really dead.

Nope, not saying it's impossible, would be interesting to see how many times the ship blows up in the mean time lol.

[strike277]

What I mean by wait? I mean that after the main product is released, the multi player is added some time afterward.  There are already games with this type of technology. FSX just to name one. I understand it's a completely different sim, but the idea is the same. I think it's too good of an opportunity to pass up. Although it would take time, the Devs are not restricted by corporate time tables. The Multi player aspect could be released as a mod or a patch. 

[Black Patriot]

What I mean by wait? I mean that after the main product is released, the multi player is added some time afterward.  There are already games with this type of technology. FSX just to name one. I understand it's a completely different sim, but the idea is the same. I think it's too good of an opportunity to pass up. Although it would take time, the Devs are not restricted by corporate time tables. The Multi player aspect could be released as a mod or a patch.

In that case it's a bit redundant to say that we'll have to wait for multiplayer, we were always going to wait for multiplayer, it's the sort of decision that's made at the start of the development process, and since the devs have said that they're not focusing on it it's clear that they don't think it needs to be part of the core game. It will have to be a mod/patch, as I said before, developing this sort of system, or any sort of decent multiplayer system, would take months of effort just for a working beta, let alone a finished product. What's more likely is that the game will be constantly evolving, the initial release will have the story and quick battle, then some time later there will be a basic multiplayer such as ship to ship or player to player (remember the FPS components) combat added, then after that more complex systems can be worked into the engine, though I don't know whether the devs would want to make that themselves, they'd probably leave it up to the modders. Make no mistake though, what you're talking about is a huge undertaking, and one that the devs have so far been unwilling to put a lot of effort towards, so don't get excited just yet.

I also assume by FSX you mean Microsoft Flight Simulator X, in which case it's hardly surprising that they'd have this sort of capability, that series was being constantly developed from the early 80s (Flight Simulator 1 came out in 1982, hard to believe really) until 2006, which is an incredibly long time in video games.

[Jules]

There are already games with this type of technology. FSX just to name one.

FSX (Flight Simulator X) had MP since it's release.

[BrioCyrain]

Star Trek Online is pretty much what happens when Star Trek multiplayer ends up mostly a failure. Playing the first weeks and being in the beta, the constant lag and inconsistency in the enemy AI showed that the developers didn't know what kind of servers or difficulty settings a game of that scale needed. As to what is easier to develop, if you count Obvilion as a "universe", people found that experience still immersive and dynamic even though there was no multiplayer(from what I could tell), compared to the hundreds of complaints of STO being broken since the game lacks or lacked any sense of stability even though it was meant to be the ultimate multiplayer Star Trek game.

As to what Black Patriot said, it would take years of R&D and engine development to make a stable Star Trek multiplayer game. Heck even Legacy while good managed to have the Servers pulled in the early months(at least on PC).

[strike277]

STO is like every other MMO. It just has a different face on it. Okay never mind then. Apparently it's too difficult a task. Too bad really.

[Pendra]

You can implement a "multiplayer" environment multiple ways. Let's see some:

- Through web based database server.
This is cheap and very simple to do. On the other hand playing player vs player or co-op this way is next to impossible.
You can achieve a Persistent galaxy this way. You can wander around in a huge galaxy, exploring and charting procedurally generated sectors and systems. Your can see other player's ships on the chart. You can see other player's charting progress. You can visit places, other players explored. But you can't meet them head-on. The best you can do for an interraction is to do an online chat.
This requires a low cost database server and minimal coding. This is good for an exploration or strategy metagame.

- LAN.
Multicrewing is moderately easy. You don't have to worry about latency and prediction. Only 1 ship and everyone is working co-op so you just have to rely the station data back and forth. There could be a fun aspect of this. Like some players fight with the ship in a tactical view, while others repair the ship and repell boarders in FPS style.
The Co-op tactical is just a bit harder since the setup is still esentially a lag free and one machine acts as a server. Since there is no competitive nature in this game type, lower quality netcode would do.
PVP is a thougher cookie because you can't allow slugish syncronization. Therefore you have to optimize the netcode and the traffic better.

- Direct connection PVP/Coop through the internet
Now that is extremely hard to do right (even the mighty DICE with the Battlefield series couldn't do it) plus you have to have dedicated servers which are costly. You need a team of experienced network specialts and months of hard work to make working version. Well, those experts are rare and very expensive.

I can see the 1st version added to compliment the story line. I've worked on this type of systems before, so it is not a big deal.
The 2nd version can be implemented within a reasonable timeframe if someone put some work into it.
The 3rd version, well I'd not hold my breath. Maybe a coop, but even that may be just way too hard to worth it.

[Darkthunder]

STO is like every other MMO. It just has a different face on it. Okay never mind then. Apparently it's too difficult a task. Too bad really.

It should be noted, that none of the coding developers on the team have commented on the topic as of yet.

For the record however, I would very much hope Multiplayer gets added. If not at start, then certainly somewhere "down the road".

[BrioCyrain]

You can implement a "multiplayer" environment multiple ways. Let's see some:

- Through web based database server.
This is cheap and very simple to do. On the other hand playing player vs player or co-op this way is next to impossible.
You can achieve a Persistent galaxy this way. You can wander around in a huge galaxy, exploring and charting procedurally generated sectors and systems. Your can see other player's ships on the chart. You can see other player's charting progress. You can visit places, other players explored. But you can't meet them head-on. The best you can do for an interraction is to do an online chat.
This requires a low cost database server and minimal coding. This is good for an exploration or strategy metagame.

- LAN.
Multicrewing is moderately easy. You don't have to worry about latency and prediction. Only 1 ship and everyone is working co-op so you just have to rely the station data back and forth. There could be a fun aspect of this. Like some players fight with the ship in a tactical view, while others repair the ship and repell boarders in FPS style.
The Co-op tactical is just a bit harder since the setup is still esentially a lag free and one machine acts as a server. Since there is no competitive nature in this game type, lower quality netcode would do.
PVP is a thougher cookie because you can't allow slugish syncronization. Therefore you have to optimize the netcode and the traffic better.

- Direct connection PVP/Coop through the internet
Now that is extremely hard to do right (even the mighty DICE with the Battlefield series couldn't do it) plus you have to have dedicated servers which are costly. You need a team of experienced network specialts and months of hard work to make working version. Well, those experts are rare and very expensive.

I can see the 1st version added to compliment the story line. I've worked on this type of systems before, so it is not a big deal.
The 2nd version can be implemented within a reasonable timeframe if someone put some work into it.
The 3rd version, well I'd not hold my breath. Maybe a coop, but even that may be just way too hard to worth it.

The first one you speak of is pretty much how the original Spore was set up. That game was hyped for years and ended up being a pretty short game.

The second one is pretty much the Multi-station approach, would be fun as long as people knew what to do in a situation.

The third one, it's getting to where in many games you can host your own dedicated server over the internet: Quake Wars, Brink, and a handful of other co-op games have this feature.

[strike277]

- LAN.
Multicrewing is moderately easy. You don't have to worry about latency and prediction. Only 1 ship and everyone is working co-op so you just have to rely the station data back and forth. There could be a fun aspect of this. Like some players fight with the ship in a tactical view, while others repair the ship and repell boarders in FPS style.
The Co-op tactical is just a bit harder since the setup is still esentially a lag free and one machine acts as a server. Since there is no competitive nature in this game type, lower quality netcode would do.

This is what I had in mind.

Though come to think of it, if Multi Monitor support is implemented and you're able to set the controls up in a Helm station also being able to drag certain Lcars control systems to different monitors you could still accomplish What I was after with out Multi player.

[Poseidon]

STO is like every other MMO. It just has a different face on it. Okay never mind then. Apparently it's too difficult a task. Too bad really.

No, it's not.

ST:E can be an MMOG as much as any other games out there.  The problem is connection and data updating.  How much would ST:E require (file size) to update the coordinate of "in game" objects to a server, then back to other computers playing at the same time.  It is a matter of size/speed.  It also depends on how well you code the MP files.  It helps if the game can compress and send/uncompress and receive data at the same time. 

So, how well can a modd be made to create a MP system, and how well can the files be up/down loaded.  WoW uses a 8x compression utility for packing and unpacking files between server and computer(s).  There are now real time MP compression software breaking 16x!  That means for every 16 megs of information, the utility can compress/uncompress 16 megs per second.  That is pretty fast!  So it would be 8/8 megs up/down file sharing with the server per second (or around that amount) depending on your connection speed.  I will look for that article again, but it said basically, the tests were done at 512k up and 1.5 meg down internet speeds.  So, if you have a faster connection, you would be able to up/down load files even faster I would imagine.

It also would depend on how the software is written for MP code.  So, there are a few things that need to be looked at, but an MMOG is not out of the question.  Perhaps someone will modd this???