Author Topic: Which Graphics API?  (Read 3392 times)

Offline BrioCyrain

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Which Graphics API?
« on: December 25, 2010, 12:49:31 AM »
I was wondering which Graphics API the devs are using to run the game? Is it DirectX9 and/or the OpenGL equivalent? Any support for DirectX10 or 11?
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Offline Vadek

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2010, 01:26:33 AM »
it's posted some ware that the game will be using DirectX9

Offline John

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2010, 02:31:28 AM »
We are using SlimDX and the base features will be DX9Ex or DX9 if you have Windows XP.  If it is required at the time of release, we will update the engine to DX11 - skipping 10 completely. :)

Offline Black Patriot

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2010, 06:41:23 AM »
If it is required at the time of release, we will update the engine to DX11 - skipping 10 completely. :)

That seems to be the way the industry as a whole is moving, very few added in DX10, mainly because of the lack of console support. What sort of features of DX11 would really lend themselves to Excalibur? I know tessellation would come in handy, but would the newer texture compression algorithms be used or would that add too much to the games size, with both DX9 and DX11 versions of the textures taking up a lot of space.
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Offline BrioCyrain

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2010, 06:52:51 AM »
DX11 also has better Multi-thread/core scaling...unlike DX9 or DX10 where people only managed to get mostly dual-core games...DX11 allows us people who actually invested in a quad-core cpu to finally have those four cores be used. That and DX11 has better 64-bit support and it's just runs ALOT faster that other APIs...that and tessellation could make all the blocky edges of characters and ships look a bit more smooth.

DX10 never was really adopted because even though it gave some decent graphical buffs it just runs VERY slow...slower than DX9 and slower than DX11. If you ask anyone who played Crysis the game on max settings even with a newer DX11 card they only get about 40 FPS out of the darn thing. DX10 also promised quad core support but failed miserably doing so. I just now was able to buy my first DX10 game this year, and lets just say in the "graphically intense" areas my card was pretty much gasping for air. I had to turn off some of the cool rendered features just to beat some of the bosses...it's THAT bad.

Anyway, I hope that explains most of it.
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Offline AricwithanA

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2010, 11:39:36 AM »
DX11 also has better Multi-thread/core scaling...unlike DX9 or DX10 where people only managed to get mostly dual-core games...DX11 allows us people who actually invested in a quad-core cpu to finally have those four cores be used. That and DX11 has better 64-bit support and it's just runs ALOT faster that other APIs...that and tessellation could make all the blocky edges of characters and ships look a bit more smooth.

DX10 never was really adopted because even though it gave some decent graphical buffs it just runs VERY slow...slower than DX9 and slower than DX11. If you ask anyone who played Crysis the game on max settings even with a newer DX11 card they only get about 40 FPS out of the darn thing. DX10 also promised quad core support but failed miserably doing so. I just now was able to buy my first DX10 game this year, and lets just say in the "graphically intense" areas my card was pretty much gasping for air. I had to turn off some of the cool rendered features just to beat some of the bosses...it's THAT bad.

Anyway, I hope that explains most of it.

Hmm, I wonder what my games use.  I max everything out, but I've not played Crysis.  lol  My card isn't DX11, bought it just before DX11 was somewhat affordable.  lol
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Offline Zachstar

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2010, 11:43:53 AM »
I agree that if needed skip 10 completely Then again that is a wee bit difficult when nano uses a 3870 :p
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Offline BrioCyrain

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2010, 02:45:27 PM »
Hmm, I wonder what my games use.  I max everything out, but I've not played Crysis.  lol  My card isn't DX11, bought it just before DX11 was somewhat affordable.  lol

Most games only use DX9, there is only about a handful that use DX10, and it's getting to the point where there will be a large line of DX11 products next year that will make DX11 surpass DX10 even though DX11 has been only out around a year and DX10 about 3 years. Of course if you ever seen pics of "Metro 2033" in DX11 mode...there isn't much DX11 CAN'T do. That said most companies right now are opting in for both DX9 and 11 support, I only know one company right now that is going to release a product that is DX11 only, and that is the Battlefield franchise.

It shouldn't be too hard to look up what your games support.
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Offline Black Patriot

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2010, 04:33:59 PM »
Actually DX10's unified shader architecture was more efficient than the shaders used in DX9, so in a straight match DX10 would have better performance. The problem is that most developers would add extra effects, like SSAO (Screen Space Ambient Occlusion), when DX10 was turned on, so even though the shaders ran faster the card had to do more work, leading to lower framerates and the impression that DX10 was slower, when it wasn't. Like most things to do with gaming, it all comes down to the engine, a well crafted engine can make magic happen, and a poorly crafted engine can look like crap whilst still crippling high end computers.

Take the RAGE engine, used in GTA IV, it's an impressive achievement, it incorporates Havok and Euphoria, along with Rockstars own rendering pipeline, but overall it's just not a very good engine. It's slow, it doesn't seem to be very good at LOD (Level of Detail) or running high res textures, and it seems to be very memory and CPU intensive for a game that really doesn't have that much going on. Even on my current specs GTA IV EFLC doesn't run that well, the highest FPS I've seen is 40-45, and that's a CPU limited number. In contrast there's Mafia II, which looks really good, has high quality models and textures, incorporates PhysX for cloth (something RAGE doesn't do, at least not well), particles and general physics functions, and can get up to 60FPS with everything turned on high with AA. Now I do have a dedicated card for PhysX, so that helps, but all I would have to do is turn it down to medium and run it off the CPU and I'd still get 40+ average FPS.
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Offline Jon Deane

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2010, 11:06:17 PM »
We are using SlimDX and the base features will be DX9Ex or DX9 if you have Windows XP.  If it is required at the time of release, we will update the engine to DX11 - skipping 10 completely. :)
I sure hope not... my laptop only has a DX10 card and cost an arm and a leg, so I can't upgrade anytime soon (and I need a laptop for school; besides, my desktop is way too old for a modern video card and CPU).

Offline BrioCyrain

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2010, 05:15:57 AM »
Actually DX10's unified shader architecture was more efficient than the shaders used in DX9, so in a straight match DX10 would have better performance. The problem is that most developers would add extra effects, like SSAO (Screen Space Ambient Occlusion), when DX10 was turned on, so even though the shaders ran faster the card had to do more work, leading to lower framerates and the impression that DX10 was slower, when it wasn't. Like most things to do with gaming, it all comes down to the engine, a well crafted engine can make magic happen, and a poorly crafted engine can look like crap whilst still crippling high end computers.

Take the RAGE engine, used in GTA IV, it's an impressive achievement, it incorporates Havok and Euphoria, along with Rockstars own rendering pipeline, but overall it's just not a very good engine. It's slow, it doesn't seem to be very good at LOD (Level of Detail) or running high res textures, and it seems to be very memory and CPU intensive for a game that really doesn't have that much going on. Even on my current specs GTA IV EFLC doesn't run that well, the highest FPS I've seen is 40-45, and that's a CPU limited number. In contrast there's Mafia II, which looks really good, has high quality models and textures, incorporates PhysX for cloth (something RAGE doesn't do, at least not well), particles and general physics functions, and can get up to 60FPS with everything turned on high with AA. Now I do have a dedicated card for PhysX, so that helps, but all I would have to do is turn it down to medium and run it off the CPU and I'd still get 40+ average FPS.

The DX10 games I have played had the option of turning off SSAO, and even then I only got about 40 FPS tops...and that is sad since my cards were meant to run it efficiently...sure you could have a GTX 200+ or an ATI 4000+ but still....nobody seemed to get a true DX10 engine running full framerate either way, all the games I have seen that ran in DX10 had at least a FEW scenes where there was very noticable bottlenecking and/or graphics lag. That and unlike DX11 the models weren't much more detailed either way between the DX9 and DX10 modes.
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Offline BrioCyrain

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2010, 05:19:47 AM »
I sure hope not... my laptop only has a DX10 card and cost an arm and a leg, so I can't upgrade anytime soon (and I need a laptop for school; besides, my desktop is way too old for a modern video card and CPU).

Gaming laptops are overpriced that's why, it's always more cost-efficient to get a gaming desktop since it's easily upgradable and runs better. I know my Dad has a laptop that "supports" DX10 but it has trouble running most DX9 games...which kind of defeats the whole purpose of DX10 support altogether.
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Offline Zachstar

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2010, 08:47:43 AM »
I sure hope not... my laptop only has a DX10 card and cost an arm and a leg, so I can't upgrade anytime soon (and I need a laptop for school; besides, my desktop is way too old for a modern video card and CPU).

No offense but the mindset of "Protect those who run old hardware drop the specs!" Is why the PC gaming industry is faltering.

Frankly you have a laptop therefore it is in your ballpark to upgrade. If a DX11 feature would either A) Make things easier for the development team or B) Have a must have feature that would really set the engine on top for many years to come. Than obviously in my opinion those without DX11 hardware will just have to adapt.

I have a DX 10.1 ATI 4770 I just like the card and that is why I am still using it. However I am not going to even think about asking a dev to hold back on API because it is not DX 11. I can work the hours and get a new card. Heck if Nano expressed any willingness to accept donations to get a DX11 card instead of his 3870 I would be glad to help as well. Because in my opinion PC gaming in sci fi space needs a boost into the future.
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Offline BrioCyrain

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2010, 09:17:00 AM »
No offense but the mindset of "Protect those who run old hardware drop the specs!" Is why the PC gaming industry is faltering.

Frankly you have a laptop therefore it is in your ballpark to upgrade. If a DX11 feature would either A) Make things easier for the development team or B) Have a must have feature that would really set the engine on top for many years to come. Than obviously in my opinion those without DX11 hardware will just have to adapt.

I have a DX 10.1 ATI 4770 I just like the card and that is why I am still using it. However I am not going to even think about asking a dev to hold back on API because it is not DX 11. I can work the hours and get a new card. Heck if Nano expressed any willingness to accept donations to get a DX11 card instead of his 3870 I would be glad to help as well. Because in my opinion PC gaming in sci fi space needs a boost into the future.

Agreed, DX11 is one of few recent chances to get PC gaming back at top. If done right it could easily boost the "immersion" aspect of the whole game with the ability for EVERY SINGLE model to have more depth through things like Tessellation, if anyone is willing to take a gander at "3D Mark 11" videos that is what a native DX11 engine looks like...IN REAL-TIME. There's no holding back now IMO.
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Offline Zachstar

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2010, 10:08:44 AM »
I have to agree that for planetary or FPS scenes DX11 is where it is at. And again if it becomes a must have feature.

However, One thing I have failed to think about is that DX11 is new. I wonder have you had any experience messing with Nano?

I don't want to come off as saying DX11 is a must for the engine to make it. That is not true Nano and the team has turned the idea into a wonderful look so far in my opinion. I just dont want any good ideas held back because someone is still sporting XP or an Intel IGP from 04
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Offline BrioCyrain

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2010, 10:19:23 AM »
I have to agree that for planetary or FPS scenes DX11 is where it is at. And again if it becomes a must have feature.

However, One thing I have failed to think about is that DX11 is new. I wonder have you had any experience messing with Nano?

I don't want to come off as saying DX11 is a must for the engine to make it. That is not true Nano and the team has turned the idea into a wonderful look so far in my opinion. I just dont want any good ideas held back because someone is still sporting XP or an Intel IGP from 04

They could do what is prefered right now, support DX9 and DX11. Keep the original code intact while for those of us who want the graphics to look truely amazing(not that they aren't already) we can run the game in the DX11 runtime/mode. If you look at Lost Planet 2 they managed to pull it off having both APIs and still integrating several of the DX11 features.
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Offline Zachstar

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2010, 01:04:44 PM »
2 modes? They had a massive team to do that.
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Offline BrioCyrain

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2010, 01:15:13 PM »
2 modes? They had a massive team to do that.

True, if I am correct there is only a handful of people working on this project right? Probably just enough hassle doing DX9.
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Offline Black Patriot

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2010, 08:33:01 PM »
The DX10 games I have played had the option of turning off SSAO, and even then I only got about 40 FPS tops...and that is sad since my cards were meant to run it efficiently...sure you could have a GTX 200+ or an ATI 4000+ but still....nobody seemed to get a true DX10 engine running full framerate either way, all the games I have seen that ran in DX10 had at least a FEW scenes where there was very noticable bottlenecking and/or graphics lag. That and unlike DX11 the models weren't much more detailed either way between the DX9 and DX10 modes.

If it there were framerate drops in specific scenes then the maps/content wasn't being optimized properly for the engine, which isn't a DX10 problem, it's a basic design issue. DX10 wasn't designed to have more detailed models, what it did allow for were more shaders for the same performance, which if used properly can increase the quality by a noticable amount. Again, this comes down to design and not DX10 itself.
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Offline BrioCyrain

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Re: Which Graphics API?
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2010, 12:05:31 AM »
If it there were framerate drops in specific scenes then the maps/content wasn't being optimized properly for the engine, which isn't a DX10 problem, it's a basic design issue. DX10 wasn't designed to have more detailed models, what it did allow for were more shaders for the same performance, which if used properly can increase the quality by a noticable amount. Again, this comes down to design and not DX10 itself.

I see, I guess the developers must have had it backwards then...seeing how they bumped up the models and not really the shaders.
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