Author Topic: Question about Warp Nacelles  (Read 1440 times)

Offline phongbong

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Question about Warp Nacelles
« on: September 07, 2010, 12:55:29 PM »
Since no ship can go faster then warp 10, what's the point of the ships that have a "third" nacelle?  And do you need  two nacelles to create a stable warp field? I could have sworn I've seen a ship with only one.
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Offline Player118

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 01:01:40 PM »
I'm not entirely sure, that is a question on my mind too. But I think it might have something to do with the mass of the ship. Considering it's either stronger heavy cruisers, dreadnaught's, and Battleships that have those.
They carry more cargo, and weapons so I assume it's just to make them measure up to standard speeds in tactical situations. Fatter payload and ship = need for more warp nacelles.

Offline MajorD

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 02:43:53 PM »
Single nacelle ships have been shown on computer displays in the original movies and in the Wolf 359 graveyard scene in TNG. 

My guess is more nacelles may offer advantages to warp field shaping efficiency both in physically adjusting the hull configuration and by direct manipulation of the warp field by subspace means.  I believe hull geometry has to have an effect on field geometry.  Also, another warp nacelle means the ship has another place to send warp plasma to shape or create the field within the same space of time. The disadvantage would be the tremendous addition of mass, which woudl mitigate any speed boost. Then again, it could be the other way, with the extra nacelle giving better speed at less efficiency, which fits better with fan expectations.

I don't think there is anything going for the idea of warp field symmetry, at least not as much as people think. My hope for the game is that if one nacelle is totally destroyed that warp will still be available in a limited way with the remaining nacelle.
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Offline AdmiralKathrynJaneway

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 05:54:18 PM »
If I remember correctly in "Year of Hell" part 2, Janeway asks about engines and B'Elanna reports that they haven't got engines yet because one nacelle is offline and the other is a lost cause. You could take this to mean that even although one nacelle is totally destroyed, the can still go to warp although probably with less efficiency and speed.


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Offline zzz

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 06:01:21 PM »
Since no ship can go faster then warp 10, what's the point of the ships that have a "third" nacelle?  And do you need  two nacelles to create a stable warp field? I could have sworn I've seen a ship with only one.

Originally Roddenberry insisted all ships have nacelles in a multiple of 2. Designers tried to ensure that no ships had anything blocking the gap between the nacelles.

Extra nacelles aren't just for max speed. Could be acceleration or max cruising speed or greater efficiency.

Offline Jon Deane

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 06:49:32 PM »
Plus in "Twilight" Enterprise was able to keep going with only one nacelle.

Offline Jules

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2010, 07:20:24 PM »
The whole thing with 3 or even 4 nacelles is to give the ship a stronger warp field in order to be able to hold a generally higher warp factor over short distances. The trade off isn't with mass here, but with max range. While two nacelled ships can cruise at smaller warp factors than 3 or 4 nacelled ones could, they have a natural longer range due to the higher fuel consumption of the 3 or 4 nacelle ships needed to run the extra nacelles. So it's the speed vs. range tradeoff thing. Also, 4 nacelled ships can warp with only 2 nacelles and keep the other two for emergency situations or as a backup, but their nacelles need to be on the same distance from the ships center of gravity to be able to run simultaneously (meaning that for example the Yamamoto class TMP battleship couldn't use all 4 of her nacelles at once, since the bottom pair is further back from the center of gravity than the top pair). Also, if we go by Gene's rule, a single nacelle ship should have rows of warp coils in her nacelle.
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Offline phongbong

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 08:12:52 AM »
Originally Roddenberry insisted all ships have nacelles in a multiple of 2. Designers tried to ensure that no ships had anything blocking the gap between the nacelles.

Extra nacelles aren't just for max speed. Could be acceleration or max cruising speed or greater efficiency.

Ahh, now I get why the Intrepid class has to "transform" before it goes to warp.   If this is true would our Excalibur Class not be able to go to warp?

Edit: I just looked at a picture of the Excalibur and realized that there's pretty much nothing between those behemoth naccelles.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 10:33:44 AM »
Plus in "Twilight" Enterprise was able to keep going with only one nacelle.
If I remember correctly in "Year of Hell" part 2, Janeway asks about engines and B'Elanna reports that they haven't got engines yet because one nacelle is offline and the other is a lost cause. You could take this to mean that even although one nacelle is totally destroyed, the can still go to warp although probably with less efficiency and speed.
Thanks guys, I didn't know any examples, it was only something I had hoped was right.

The whole thing with 3 or even 4 nacelles is to give the ship a stronger warp field in order to be able to hold a generally higher warp factor over short distances. The trade off isn't with mass here, but with max range. While two nacelled ships can cruise at smaller warp factors than 3 or 4 nacelled ones could, they have a natural longer range due to the higher fuel consumption of the 3 or 4 nacelle ships needed to run the extra nacelles. So it's the speed vs. range tradeoff thing. Also, 4 nacelled ships can warp with only 2 nacelles and keep the other two for emergency situations or as a backup, but their nacelles need to be on the same distance from the ships center of gravity to be able to run simultaneously (meaning that for example the Yamamoto class TMP battleship couldn't use all 4 of her nacelles at once, since the bottom pair is further back from the center of gravity than the top pair). Also, if we go by Gene's rule, a single nacelle ship should have rows of warp coils in her nacelle.

With all the same engines, four engines would only need to run at half power to equal the same power drain as two engines at full power.

Keeping two nacelles as spares in a four nacelle setup could be tremendously wasteful. Considering Voyager's landing gear setup, its nacelles have to account for roughly a third its mass in order to counter balance the saucer, as the backstage explanation has no confirmation within the show. In "Timeless" Voyager's saucer also stays above the ice with the nacelles level as if counterbalanced by the nacelles as it slides to a stop. After all, the coil segments of the nacelles are gigantic metal arcs. It's also the only way certain designs can have centers of gravity centered on impulse drives. Not that that is much of an issue considering "All Stop" orders and instant reverse thrust indicates an asinine thrust vectoring capability.

I don't see how being equally away from the center of gravity actually matters considering the high placement of the majority of nacelles in two nacelles designs. If there were a balance issue with the mass, then two nacelles both above the center of gravity should cause the ship to constantly nose forward and down. Wouldn't that make designs such as the Challenger, Norway, Galaxy, and Defiant the only practical ones? Unequally placed nacelles, such as the three nacelle Excelsior kitbash should only result in a warp field shape similar to that of a ship with an engineering section, going by what has been seen of the Galaxy class' radiating warp field diagram.  There is also the Breen ship which is horribly imbalanced.

If we go by Gene's rules, the Defiant, Peregrine, Saber, Oberth, Data's Mission Scout, Sydney, Challanger, Curry, and Denube, and for that matter just about all shuttles would all be physically impossible because their nacelles cannot see at 50% of each other. Voyager can fit there too, because in the down position it wouldn't work, but in the up position, even though the nacelles are visible across from each other, I don't think the Bussard collectors can fully see past the saucer.  The dual-row-coil-assembly-in-single-nacelle explanation should only matter if all of the Roddenberry rules matter, but they've never been strictly followed. Even the Sovereign breaks the rules thanks to its whole nacelles not fully clearing the saucer, only the Bussard collectors clear the saucer. Single nacelle flight by paired nacelle ships also completely throws out the concept of needing dual row coils in single nacelles, if the above examples hold out.

As rules of thumb for designs they're decent and can lead to some interesting designs, but it seems apparent that the universe follows the rules as nothing but generalities and not law.
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Offline AdmiralKathrynJaneway

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2010, 05:47:40 AM »
As far as I was concerned the only reason Voyager had moving nacelles was because the Paramount execs wanted something on the ship that moved?

In universe, it was explained as a way to decrease the damaging effects that the Federation warp drives were having on space, which results in them being able to warp at higher speeds.

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Offline Jules

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 07:48:48 AM »
With all the same engines, four engines would only need to run at half power to equal the same power drain as two engines at full power.

Uhm...no. Isn't that easy.

Keeping two nacelles as spares in a four nacelle setup could be tremendously wasteful.

No, it wouldn't, just keeping the top or bottom pair off would save on fuel.

Considering Voyager's landing gear setup, its nacelles have to account for roughly a third its mass in order to counter balance the saucer, as the backstage explanation has no confirmation within the show. In "Timeless" Voyager's saucer also stays above the ice with the nacelles level as if counterbalanced by the nacelles as it slides to a stop. After all, the coil segments of the nacelles are gigantic metal arcs. It's also the only way certain designs can have centers of gravity centered on impulse drives. Not that that is much of an issue considering "All Stop" orders and instant reverse thrust indicates an asinine thrust vectoring capability.

I don't see how being equally away from the center of gravity actually matters considering the high placement of the majority of nacelles in two nacelles designs. If there were a balance issue with the mass, then two nacelles both above the center of gravity should cause the ship to constantly nose forward and down. Wouldn't that make designs such as the Challenger, Norway, Galaxy, and Defiant the only practical ones?

You know what a center of gravity is, do you? It's the point where all of an objects mass is equally distributed. The positioning relative to the rest of the ships hull is irrevelant with a 2 nacelle setup, only the placements of the nacelles amongst each other is. The Galaxy has the nacelles on the same places from it's CoG as any other ship has, having 3 or more makes stuff a bit complicated.

Unequally placed nacelles, such as the three nacelle Excelsior kitbash should only result in a warp field shape similar to that of a ship with an engineering section, going by what has been seen of the Galaxy class' radiating warp field diagram.  There is also the Breen ship which is horribly imbalanced.

3 nacelled ships that don't have them spread in a Y shape viewed front/aft make a problem, also, with this and anything else, disregard the "Best of Both Worlds" Galaxy, that one's an art team joke.

Also, the 50% rule goes for plasma grilles (or, if we really want to be precise about it: the warp coil rows), and not the nacelles themselves, since they produce the warpfield and not the entire nacelle itself.
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Offline Black Patriot

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2010, 08:14:04 AM »
As far as I was concerned the only reason Voyager had moving nacelles was because the Paramount execs wanted something on the ship that moved?

In universe, it was explained as a way to decrease the damaging effects that the Federation warp drives were having on space, which results in them being able to warp at higher speeds.

The only problem with that explanation is that it makes no sense. If the nacelles increased in angle at higher warp, much like the swept wings of the F-14, then that would be fine, but they don't, they always go back to the same position, so why not leave them up all the time then.
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Offline furswift

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2010, 09:19:22 AM »
The only problem with that explanation is that it makes no sense. If the nacelles increased in angle at higher warp, much like the swept wings of the F-14, then that would be fine, but they don't, they always go back to the same position, so why not leave them up all the time then.

I never understood why Voyager's nacelles didn't just stay up either; it's just one more thing that can break and there's no advantage to having them down. The only explanation is that the producers wanted a "cool thing".

Offline MajorD

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2010, 01:10:33 PM »
Uhm...no. Isn't that easy.
No, it wouldn't, just keeping the top or bottom pair off would save on fuel.[/color]
Why not? Running two nacelles while the other two remain off also puts more strain on the running pair than running all four at lower individual levels for equal effect.

You know what a center of gravity is, do you? It's the point where all of an objects mass is equally distributed. The positioning relative to the rest of the ships hull is irrevelant with a 2 nacelle setup, only the placements of the nacelles amongst each other is. The Galaxy has the nacelles on the same places from it's CoG as any other ship has, having 3 or more makes stuff a bit complicated.

You wrote, "but their nacelles need to be on the same distance from the ships center of gravity to be able to run simultaneously", but you don't explain why. I took it as an over all issue of balance, but you apparently have no issue with nacelle pairs generally being completely off the center of gravity. What I don't see is why another pair or third nacelles needs to strike a balance by being equally distant from the CG when the first two nacelles don't need to achieve that balance.

3 nacelled ships that don't have them spread in a Y shape viewed front/aft make a problem, also, with this and anything else, disregard the "Best of Both Worlds" Galaxy, that one's an art team joke.

Also, the 50% rule goes for plasma grilles (or, if we really want to be precise about it: the warp coil rows), and not the nacelles themselves, since they produce the warpfield and not the entire nacelle itself.
Most of those example ships still break that rule with with that change. Except the Oberth, that one doesn't fit either way.

The future Galaxy actually fits the original technical manual's dreadnought, Federation class, which had the same configuration and appeared in Star Trek II on a screen, and was mentioned in chatter in Star Trek I.
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Offline AdmiralKathrynJaneway

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2010, 05:15:04 AM »
The only problem with that explanation is that it makes no sense. If the nacelles increased in angle at higher warp, much like the swept wings of the F-14, then that would be fine, but they don't, they always go back to the same position, so why not leave them up all the time then.

If I recall correctly, the explaination was that the variable geometry nacelles allowed for a far more efficient warp field to be created around the ship and this helped prevent damage to surrounding space (which was a story from a TNG episode, the name of which escapes me).

I guess they didn't always stay in the raised position because they didn't always use warp? I can't think of a decent in universe explaination but in RL, it's because the producers wanted a part to move because it looked cool. I think I remember Rick Sternback saying that originally it was a completely different part that was supposed to move (for some reason, weaponary comes to mind).

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Offline Jules

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2010, 05:51:43 AM »
Most of those example ships still break that rule with with that change. Except the Oberth, that one doesn't fit either way.

The future Galaxy actually fits the original technical manual's dreadnought, Federation class, which had the same configuration and appeared in Star Trek II on a screen, and was mentioned in chatter in Star Trek I.

Why the Oberth doesn't fit then exactly?

The Galaxy X (as it's popularly called) isn't a compare with the Federation class, it's a fanboy ship, the art team was given permission to fool around with the ship for the refit Riker would command, the Gal X is the result. It shouldn't be taken seriously at all, it's a art team joke.

The ST1 chatter doesn't mention it, it mentions the scout vessels Revere and Columbia only.
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Offline Jimmy

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 06:27:14 AM »
(slightly offtopic, but since the Gal X was mentioned, i just wanted to chime in on it)
personally, i think the Gal X is a joke lol  it looks stupid, and i just cant get over the antennae that stick out of the saucer lol
get rid of those and the stupid 3rd nacelle, and it would have been more awesome...  granted, it would just be a regular Galaxy with a super huge phaser gun on the bottom of the saucer, but it would have been better without all those extra appendages lol

Offline MajorD

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2010, 06:36:37 AM »
Why the Oberth doesn't fit then exactly?

The Galaxy X (as it's popularly called) isn't a compare with the Federation class, it's a fanboy ship, the art team was given permission to fool around with the ship for the refit Riker would command, the Gal X is the result. It shouldn't be taken seriously at all, it's a art team joke.

The ST1 chatter doesn't mention it, it mentions the scout vessels Revere and Columbia only.


Because, the Oberth's nacelles and grills are visible to each other, and I mistakenly listed it as a ship with blocked nacelle sight lines.

The Galaxy X and Federation Class have similar nacelle configurations. It doesn't matter that the design team was told to make the ship a hot rod, the ship was in the show in an extremely visible way, not like the WWII bomber inside the Enterprise-D, or signage poetry and jokes. Unless someone is ready to argue that such jokes are part of the in-world design aesthetic, which would be hilarious and acceptable. 

A dreadnought is mentioned in the TMP chatter, they don't mention which class, but with the Federation class being seen in the next movie, it supports the idea that the particular dreadnought was a Federation class dreadnought.
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Offline Darkthunder

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2010, 08:17:51 AM »
The Galaxy X and Federation Class have similar nacelle configurations. It doesn't matter that the design team was told to make the ship a hot rod, the ship was in the show in an extremely visible way, not like the WWII bomber inside the Enterprise-D, or signage poetry and jokes. Unless someone is ready to argue that such jokes are part of the in-world design aesthetic, which would be hilarious and acceptable.
One thing I must point out: When we see the Galaxy-X in 'All Good Things', it's seen in a fictitious possible future created by 'Q'. There is no reason to assume that ANY of the events or objects seen in that timeline will ever come to pass in the proper timeline. Given that there have already been notable differences made, such as the statement of Warp 10 being "infinite velocity", and the destruction of the Galaxy class Enterprise-D.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Question about Warp Nacelles
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2010, 09:27:09 AM »
One thing I must point out: When we see the Galaxy-X in 'All Good Things', it's seen in a fictitious possible future created by 'Q'. There is no reason to assume that ANY of the events or objects seen in that timeline will ever come to pass in the proper timeline. Given that there have already been notable differences made, such as the statement of Warp 10 being "infinite velocity", and the destruction of the Galaxy class Enterprise-D.
I thought that too for a long time, that the "All Good Things..." future was a false and completely aritificial creation, but then I realized the future events were supposed to be possible events, because the Q test is dependent on the natural flow of events.  If we take the anomaly as the only true difference in that episode's history, then the alternate future would have been perfectly possible. We can take the elimination of the anomaly and Picard's future knowledge as reasons why things haven't played out as they did in "All Good Things...", instead of writing it off.  After all, some events seem to be moving toward that future despite the differences.
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