Author Topic: Caught in a Warp Field  (Read 1480 times)

Offline MajorD

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Caught in a Warp Field
« on: July 24, 2010, 03:00:21 PM »
Warp fields form as bubbles, so what I'm wondering is, if you are inside the radius of a warp field that is not yours will you be taken along for the ride, in the game? Examples: a shuttle inside a D'Deridex's wing arcs, a shuttle on the Enterprise-D's hull, the NX-02 extending its warp field around the NX-01 or vice versa.
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Offline ii123

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 09:24:06 PM »
As a plot device they always seem to need to wait for the shuttle to dock for drama..

Offline MajorD

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 03:50:42 AM »
Do they? I only vaguely remember something like that in Enterprise, because the docking procedure is slow and requires physical contact.
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Offline ii123

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 06:28:57 AM »
Hm, it happened at least once on voyager, when voyager was fooled into trying to help a temporal reflection of itself from the future near a singularity ..I wondered why they waited so long for the shuttle to complete docking..I'd have thought there would be several instances when ships in dangerous situations waited for shuttles, but tricky to recall..

Offline Kaempfer

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 06:56:21 AM »
You should be able to hitch a ride by being inside of another ships warp bubble. At least if it works like Alcubierre theorized.

Offline 11001001

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 08:55:35 AM »
So your saying, what Q did in "True Q", when he stood between the nacelles, he wouldn't be flung in the opposite direction, if he wasn't omnipitent of course. The inertial dampeners do work in keeping the ship held together at warp.

Offline Black Patriot

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 09:09:26 AM »
There was that episode of Enterprise that had another ship leeching off their warp field, whilst they were at warp, though I can't remember how operational their engines were at the time, so they might not have been actually propelled by the warp field, instead they could have been using Enterprise as a boost. There was also the later episode where Columbia used their warp field to sustain Enterprise whilst Trip repaired the warp drive, so we know one ship can use their warp field to propel another ship.

I'd say that the main reason we've seen that they like to wait for shuttles to dock is because of safety, especially in Enterprise when the shuttles were barely self-sufficient for more than a few hours, and had no warp drive of their own.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 10:56:55 AM »
If the warp field works anything like a real field, then its effects would become less the further you are from the source. If you were at the edge of the field while the ship goes to warp you might get pulled along. But, only for an instant, because you aren't accelerating as fast as the ship, so you eventually get left behind. As suggested, having the shuttle fully dock first may be a safety precaution but not a necessary one.

If I were handling docking, I would make it pretty fast. I have a feeling Voyager prolonged it for dramatic effect, and that it probably doesn't fit other instances of docking.
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Offline Zachstar

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 11:38:43 AM »
Is this REALLY something the devs ought to take time to code in? How often would such a situation happen inside the game anyway? Not alot.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 01:25:21 PM »
It's one reason I made it a topic of discussion rather than suggestion. However, it touches on quite a bit of things and it would definitely be interesting for warp to be handled as a spheroid, rather than however other games handle the issue.

Who here has wanted to see a ship dragged along inside a D'Deridex? Also, with a warp sphere the Voyager scene, where Voyager is dragged by a Borg cube at warp, can be replicated.

Another interesting aspect to a warp field, other than the canon of it, is if you drop shuttles or escape pods while at warp, they can gradually drop from warp rather than suddenly not be supported. It even gives a buffer so they could turn back. It also creates a minimal safe distance for warp objects unless you match fields. Imagine purposefully ramming another at-warp ship and your two fields purposefully interfering with each other specifically to drop the other ship from warp.
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Offline Black Patriot

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 09:17:34 PM »
But the problem with that is that escape pods do drop to sub-light pretty quickly, the escape pod that Soong was left in (Enterprise, Season 4) dropped out of warp pretty much as soon as it got more than 10m from the bird of prey. For shuttles there's the posibility that they use their warp drives as sustainers, so they could use the warp field of their parent ship to cruise to their destination without using much energy (that could actually be a possible tactic for covert insertion, since the shuttle wouldn't need its warp engines running, at least not at full, then you can have the parent drop the shuttle on course to a planet, for example, and it'd coast the rest of the way with a minimal sensor signature).

Shuttle docking could probably work much faster then is usually shown, with the exception of Enterprise where they had to physically make contact with the shuttle because of they layout of the docking bay. But in later ships that had a horizontal shuttle bay and tractor beams then there's really no reason that a shuttle couldn't do what they did in Star Trek V (I don't like reminding people of this film, but...) when they had the shuttle fly at full impulse and the Enterprise caught it in a net. With tractor beams they could do the same maneuver without having the shuttle crash and generally wreck up the shuttle bay.
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Offline 11001001

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 05:06:08 AM »
@BlackPatriot: If the shuttle was situated inside the warp field of a bigger ship, do you think that it might carry on, so to speak, if the mother ship dropped out of warp, sort of like, a throw off or would it drop out of warp at exactly the same time of the bigger ship. If so, the shuttles inertial dampeners would have to be synchronised with the bigger ship, wouldnt they. Could a shuttle also navigate at impulse while in the warp field of another ship, and also be undetected because it's power readings would be indisinguishable from the "wake" left by the other ship.

Offline MajorD

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 05:48:03 AM »
But the problem with that is that escape pods do drop to sub-light pretty quickly, the escape pod that Soong was left in (Enterprise, Season 4) dropped out of warp pretty much as soon as it got more than 10m from the bird of prey.
It's also seen in an early episode with Trip and an alien princess who escape a Klingon ship. But, I feel that delay between seperating from the ship and noticable slowdown are enough to indicate a meter or two of in-field space.

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For shuttles there's the posibility that they use their warp drives as sustainers, so they could use the warp field of their parent ship to cruise
to their
I'm in love with this idea. The shuttle would definitely need to run its warp engines at a minimal level to sustain the field. I like the idea of not being able to turn if you sustain the field. What if, you try turning a sustained field it destabilizes then destroys the field.


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Shuttle docking could probably work much faster then is usually shown, with the exception of Enterprise where they had to physically make contact with the shuttle because of they layout of the docking bay. But in later ships that had a horizontal shuttle bay and tractor beams then there's really no reason that a shuttle couldn't do what they did in Star Trek V (I don't like reminding people of this film, but...) when they had the shuttle fly at full impulse and the Enterprise caught it in a net. With tractor beams they could do the same maneuver without having the shuttle crash and generally wreck up the shuttle bay.
Tractor beams are the real reason for speeding docking. In TNG whenever a shuttle docked they needed to be brought in by the small internal tractor beam, I think because the small bay wasn't very deep. This is really no different from the NX style docking, small bay needs device to bring the shuttle in safely. If the bay is deep, perhaps also with plenty of vertical, then it could be safe for the shuttle to bring itself in without a final tractor beam.

@BlackPatriot: If the shuttle was situated inside the warp field of a bigger ship, do you think that it might carry on, so to speak, if the mother ship dropped out of warp, sort of like, a throw off or would it drop out of warp at exactly the same time of the bigger ship. If so, the shuttles inertial dampeners would have to be synchronised with the bigger ship, wouldnt they. Could a shuttle also navigate at impulse while in the warp field of another ship, and also be undetected because it's power readings would be indisinguishable from the "wake" left by the other ship.
I think they would drop from warp at an equal rate, if it weren't for residual warp engine charge. In the episode that lead to the Warp 5 limit, they pre-charged the nacelles with warp energy to let them drift at warp, then they use a quick high power warp burst to get them moving for the drift. My guess is, if you're running the nacelles normally then they should probably pick up some sort of charge that needs to dissipate on its own or be forced out.

However, escape pod instances may be indicating that a non-forced deceleration from warp may not require inertial dampeners. I vaguely remember one instance where they are mentioned in regard to warp, and that might be a Q episode where the ship was going to stop unusually fast from warp.

If we go with the idea that stuff in the warp field is not really moving, then conventional methods, such as impulse, should be capable of moving within a warp field. If the shuttle were not detectable, I think the only reason would be because the ship whose field it is riding within is overpowering the emissions of the shuttle. If it were a matter of a small ship running its warp drive inside the warp field of a larger ship, then it might be a matter of overpowering or mixing fields. It might even create a third kind of field that matches neither ship.
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Offline 11001001

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 06:37:13 AM »
Another point aswell, if the shuttle is riding along with it's larger counterpart, would it's structural integrity field need to be reinforced, seeing as a shuttle which is only capable of warp 5 say, wouldnt be capable of sustaining a velocity over that without flying apart.

Offline Black Patriot

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 09:40:38 AM »
Another point aswell, if the shuttle is riding along with it's larger counterpart, would it's structural integrity field need to be reinforced, seeing as a shuttle which is only capable of warp 5 say, wouldnt be capable of sustaining a velocity over that without flying apart.

Hmm, that's an interesting thought. Technically I suppose it would depend on whether it was within the protective range of the larger ships deflector array, since that's going to move incoming particles out of the way. There's really no reason beyond hitting things that should cause any structural stress, since the shuttle's nacelles aren't being used to accelerate the shuttle, there'd be no shearing force from them. I'd say that the shuttle would be fine with it's own structural integrity field, as long as it had inertial dampeners for when it's accelerating and decelerating.

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I'm in love with this idea. The shuttle would definitely need to run its warp engines at a minimal level to sustain the field. I like the idea of not being able to turn if you sustain the field. What if, you try turning a sustained field it destabilizes then destroys the field.

I'd think that to turn they'd need to power up their own engines, which would increase their sensor profile. There's another possible point of drama for a mission, you've been sent on a covert mission to intercept say a ship that's sitting near federation space, but it moves from it's calculated position so you have to decide whether to power up your warp engines and risk detection, or drop out of warp further away and try to reach the ship at impulse, without being detected.

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Tractor beams are the real reason for speeding docking. In TNG whenever a shuttle docked they needed to be brought in by the small internal tractor beam, I think because the small bay wasn't very deep. This is really no different from the NX style docking, small bay needs device to bring the shuttle in safely. If the bay is deep, perhaps also with plenty of vertical, then it could be safe for the shuttle to bring itself in without a final tractor beam.

Since we've seen that in canon, I think we can assume that the shuttles can come in much faster than they do, the reason they usually don't of course is because of safety. In an emergency I think it'd be justified for a shuttle to come in screaming at full impulse, would make for an interesting mission, having to pilot your shuttle into the rough area of the shuttle bay whilst the parent ship engages with an enemy.
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Offline MajorD

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 03:42:40 PM »
Hmm, that's an interesting thought. Technically I suppose it would depend on whether it was within the protective range of the larger ships deflector array, since that's going to move incoming particles out of the way. There's really no reason beyond hitting things that should cause any structural stress, since the shuttle's nacelles aren't being used to accelerate the shuttle, there'd be no shearing force from them. I'd say that the shuttle would be fine with it's own structural integrity field, as long as it had inertial dampeners for when it's accelerating and decelerating.
     If the warp bubble is a moving volume of space, then the only ship that will need physical compensation is the one generating the field, since that's the only ship with a link to the field structure. The stresses will go into the generating ship's engines, but the other ship is just along for the ride, not even performing stustainer work, so I don't think it would experience any stresses. As we've seen with the escape pods leaving fields, they experience no sensation of deceleration at all, not even a little shaking which might be expected in the Enterprise era.
     The deflector is a good point, though, the field drops off so fast any shuttle would probably be outside the warp field before it is outside the deflector's radius. If the deflector of the main ship failed, I could easily imagine the shuttle's deflector being overwhelmed and unable to sufficiently deflect interstellar particles.
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I'd think that to turn they'd need to power up their own engines, which would increase their sensor profile. There's another possible point of drama for a mission, you've been sent on a covert mission to intercept say a ship that's sitting near federation space, but it moves from it's calculated position so you have to decide whether to power up your warp engines and risk detection, or drop out of warp further away and try to reach the ship at impulse, without being detected.
They need to have their engines going in the first place to maintain the warp field that is being sustained, unless they are running on pre-charged warp engines. Ships in Trek also have absurdly long ranged sensors. In an episode of DS9 a runabout detected another ship 20 light years away, I don't think it was at warp either.
        The problem is to compensate for the changes in field structure I would expect you would need to be able to create that strength of field in the first place. If that's the way ships turn, by creating differently balanced fields. But, perhaps it's a matter of using normal thrusters and the field just being reoriented with the ship. If that's the case, then the warp sustaining shuttle would not be able to turn a sustained warp field, because it is not generating the field continuously, only keeping it going. If it turned, then it might only fly sideways at warp. That could even be how the Enterprise-D pulled off the on a dime turn without being mentioned to drop from warp. It could have turned its warp engines to a sustainer mode, turned on its axis, then re-engaged the engines
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Since we've seen that in canon, I think we can assume that the shuttles can come in much faster than they do, the reason they usually don't of course is because of safety. In an emergency I think it'd be justified for a shuttle to come in screaming at full impulse, would make for an interesting mission, having to pilot your shuttle into the rough area of the shuttle bay whilst the parent ship engages with an enemy.
Or transport them into the shuttle bay.
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Offline 11001001

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2010, 08:36:55 PM »
@Blackpatriot & MajorD: The shuttle then would have to take it's warp engines offline if it were to park itself inside it's counterparts warp field, that way, there shouldnt be two warp fields trying to work on two seperate objects.

Offline Black Patriot

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2010, 09:38:46 PM »
@Blackpatriot & MajorD: The shuttle then would have to take it's warp engines offline if it were to park itself inside it's counterparts warp field, that way, there shouldnt be two warp fields trying to work on two seperate objects.

That's not true, we've seen ships align warp fields before, like Enterprise and Columbia, they aligned their warp fields to allow Columbia to transfer Trip, then they used Columbia's engines to sustain Enterprise whilst Trip fixed the warp core. I'm not sure why it was necessary for Columbia to sustain them though, shutting down the warp core would have simply cut power to the warp engines, and the ship should have just slowed down to impulse. I suppose there could have been a design flaw in the NX class, since it wasn't actually designed to go at the speeds that Enterprise was, so perhaps the nacelles wouldn't have been able to handle the sudden loss of power, and they couldn't ramp it down because of the Klingon virus.

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They need to have their engines going in the first place to maintain the warp field that is being sustained, unless they are running on pre-charged warp engines. Ships in Trek also have absurdly long ranged sensors. In an episode of DS9 a runabout detected another ship 20 light years away, I don't think it was at warp either.

I prefer to interpret that as they were able to detect the warp signature of the ship from that distance, not as the actual sensors could scan that far. That lends some evidence to the idea that long range sensors are passive, with large restrictions on both the range and accuracy of active sensors, not to mention the fact that it'd increase the sensor profile of the scanning ship. The best analogy would be submarines, if they use their active sonar then they can detect other ships within a certain range, however the ping from their sonar can be detected far beyond the range that they can pick up the echos. But they can also pickup loud engine noise from great distances, that's why they have to travel relatively slowly to remain undetected. In the same vein if the warp engines were barely being used, such as when maintaining a warp field, then that would give the ship a very small sensor profile, which would blend into the background radiation of the universe at a distance. If the ship had to change direction though I would assume that doing so would increase their warp output, which in turn makes them more detectable.

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The problem is to compensate for the changes in field structure I would expect you would need to be able to create that strength of field in the first place. If that's the way ships turn, by creating differently balanced fields. But, perhaps it's a matter of using normal thrusters and the field just being reoriented with the ship. If that's the case, then the warp sustaining shuttle would not be able to turn a sustained warp field, because it is not generating the field continuously, only keeping it going. If it turned, then it might only fly sideways at warp. That could even be how the Enterprise-D pulled off the on a dime turn without being mentioned to drop from warp. It could have turned its warp engines to a sustainer mode, turned on its axis, then re-engaged the engines

Well there really isn't any evidence one way or the other, though I do recall impulse engines being off at warp, but that might have been my imagination, or an FX error. If I had to guess I'd say that the warp engines modify the geometry of the field momentarily, enough to change the heading of the ship, and then return the field to normal once the maneuver is complete. I'd also say that the warp coils (the coils are in the nacelles, and they're huge. I'm looking at you Enterprise...) in the nacelles are physically oriented so as to produce a field in a certain way to get the best economy from the engines, and that the turning rate of the ship is limited by the energy that can be pushed through the coils, as well as the ability of the  structural integrity field to keep the nacelles on the hull, can't be easy to balance the stresses of rotating a starship at several hundred times the speed of light.

Following that line of reasoning I've actually had an idea that I've been working on for a while for a class of ship that would incorporate both variable geometry nacelles (not the pylons, the actual nacelles, including the coils) along with a sort of stealth armor, designed to absorb energy emissions, much like the acoustic paint and rubber tiles on submarines. I will admit that the design has more than a passing similarity to the Normandy from Mass Effect, with good reason, that ship is awesome. The basic idea is that the ship is coated in the armor, and as long as there's a charge running through it it will absorb radiation, preventing the ship from giving away it's position. It would also fool active sensors, though I'd assume that if the scanning ship got too close then they'd be able to overwhelm the armor with high intensity scans. The variable geometry nacelles would allow the ship to have a stealthy warp profile but a limited top speed and fuel economy in the closed position but in the open position they would allow for a very high warp speed, and good economy, at the expense of making the ship as visible as any other.

Is it just me or do the posts in tech related subjects just get longer and longer...
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Offline Jon Deane

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2010, 10:31:18 PM »
     If the warp bubble is a moving volume of space, then the only ship that will need physical compensation is the one generating the field, since that's the only ship with a link to the field structure. The stresses will go into the generating ship's engines, but the other ship is just along for the ride, not even performing stustainer work, so I don't think it would experience any stresses. As we've seen with the escape pods leaving fields, they experience no sensation of deceleration at all, not even a little shaking which might be expected in the Enterprise era.
But if the warp bubble is a moving volume of space, wouldn't the escape pod get destroyed when it left the warp field due to the spacial distortions?  I would imagine that the distortions at the edge of a warp field would make the anomaly fields in the Delphic Expanse look like normal space.

Offline 11001001

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Re: Caught in a Warp Field
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2010, 01:19:55 AM »
That's not true, we've seen ships align warp fields before, like Enterprise and Columbia, they aligned their warp fields to allow Columbia to transfer Trip, then they used Columbia's engines to sustain Enterprise whilst Trip fixed the warp core. I'm not sure why it was necessary for Columbia to sustain them though, shutting down the warp core would have simply cut power to the warp engines, and the ship should have just slowed down to impulse. I suppose there could have been a design flaw in the NX class, since it wasn't actually designed to go at the speeds that Enterprise was, so perhaps the nacelles wouldn't have been able to handle the sudden loss of power, and they couldn't ramp it down because of the Klingon virus.

Oh, I forgot about that :o