Warp Turning

[Black Patriot]

The point is the Doctor never brings up the causes of the mutations, that leaves a hole to be filled. We can assume the Doctor cared about why because he is a good doctor, but we can't say for certain that he did, because it is never brought up for our notice. That leaves it as a hole to be filled.

Which is all the more glaring as a script issue, in almost every other case I can think of he has at least tried to get to the cause of a new illness or condition, he has never just treated it and left it at that. I agree, it does leave a rather large plot hole, but you can't just fill it with anything.

With the conflicts between dialog and events, something must give out or unite it all. It also has to be noted that just because they sound specific doesn't mean they are when it is considered how often they use crappy similes and changing them metaphor. My explanation needs next to no modification of meaning, while you haven't proposed any alternate solution to reconcile the facts.

That's easy, declare the whole episode non-canon, since it wasn't mentioned again in any of the following episodes, and the producers and writers have declared it non-canon, I don't see why this would be such an issue. There are over 700 episodes of Star Trek in the declared Canon, why is dropping one (that's almost universally hated, including by the people who made it) a bad idea?

You're only assuming infinite energy is required, changing into subspace means it is not required as the vessel is no longer material.

Everything we know about warp drive indicates that more speed requires more energy, why would infinite energy not be required for infinite speed?

Transporters work by turning people into subspace energy, and projecting that energy in such a way that the matter reemerges on target and reconnects with itself while excluding everything local. There are at least three transporter episodes, where people are stuck in subspace or as subspace phenomena, two in TNG (Picard stuck in a cloud, Barclay finds people in the buffer), and ENT where the transporters inventor's son is trapped as a subspace phenomena.  In the first two everyone is aware of what is happening, in the latter no time seems to have passed for the guy.  Also, since conventional materials and energy all interfere with subspace sensors, that shows those things have natural subspace presence.

As I said before, we know very little about how the transporter works, but it is definitely not through subspace, as there were several instances of "Subspace Transporters" which were declared to be very different from the Federation's transporter technology. To quote memory alpha (again):

Next, the lifeform or object to be beamed was scanned on the quantum level using a molecular imaging scanner. At this point, Heisenberg compensators took into account the position and direction of all subatomic particles composing the object or individual and created a map of the physical structure being disassembled amounting to billions of kiloquads of data.

Simultaneously, the object was broken down into a stream of subatomic particles, also called the matter stream. The matter stream was briefly stored in a pattern buffer while the system compensates for Doppler shift to the destination.

The matter stream was then transmitted to its destination via a subspace frequency. As with any type of transmission of energy or radiation, scattering and degradation of the signal must be monitored closely. The annular confinement beam (ACB) acted to maintain the integrity of the information contained in the beam. Finally, the initial process was reversed and the object or individual was reassembled at the destination.

The object isn't transformed into subspace energy, it's converted into a matter stream and transported via subspace, but the methods of both how to break someone down into their requisite matter, or how exactly it's transported to the target location is never explained, for obvious reasons (it'd be really difficult to come up with an answer that isn't nonsense). And the episode with Barclay, "Realm of Fear", is contradicted with dialogue in the later episode "Bloodlines", which also has a subspace transporter.

Geordi is just as clear as Paris and the others in what happened, and the following events after Geordi's statement makes everything fit better. One modification with a lean toward warp 10 being a field state and not a speed fixes a bunch of problems.

As I said before, we can take Geordi's statement as being one of desperation, because of the stressful situation he was in. Now even if Gene did intend for Warp 10 to be an impossible to reach point it might not have been communicated to the script writers in time, or whoever was checking the dialogue for errors might have just missed it, or it was labeled under "Tech" in the script (which was the writers way of telling the tech researchers to just make something up and put it in the script). And you solution is still contradicted half a dozen times in Threshold, where they state explicitly that Warp 10 = infinite velocity, not a new metastable subspace field state, but infinite velocity.

[MajorD]

That's easy, declare the whole episode non-canon, since it wasn't mentioned again in any of the following episodes, and the producers and writers have declared it non-canon, I don't see why this would be such an issue. There are over 700 episodes of Star Trek in the declared Canon, why is dropping one (that's almost universally hated, including by the people who made it) a bad idea?

That's the lazy non-solution and completely avoids the point of discussion or figuring out in-universe answers. Developement concerns are a completely separate issue.

Everything we know about warp drive indicates that more speed requires more energy, why would infinite energy not be required for infinite speed?

Because, the required energy to reach a velocity obviously changes once the barrier is broken given that a shuttle normally cannot go faster than a starship. It's not something new either, all transwarp style drives allow greater speed given equal energy.

As I said before, we know very little about how the transporter works, but it is definitely not through subspace, as there were several instances of "Subspace Transporters" which were declared to be very different from the Federation's transporter technology.

There is no fixed method for transwarp travel, as the Borg have several variations, there is the Dinosaur version, and the quantum slipstream version. Not to mention coaxial and wormhole.

To quote memory alpha (again):

Next, the lifeform or object to be beamed was scanned on the quantum level using a molecular imaging scanner. At this point, Heisenberg compensators took into account the position and direction of all subatomic particles composing the object or individual and created a map of the physical structure being disassembled amounting to billions of kiloquads of data.

Simultaneously, the object was broken down into a stream of subatomic particles, also called the matter stream. The matter stream was briefly stored in a pattern buffer while the system compensates for Doppler shift to the destination.

The matter stream was then transmitted to its destination via a subspace frequency. As with any type of transmission of energy or radiation, scattering and degradation of the signal must be monitored closely. The annular confinement beam (ACB) acted to maintain the integrity of the information contained in the beam. Finally, the initial process was reversed and the object or individual was reassembled at the destination.

The object isn't transformed into subspace energy, it's converted into a matter stream and transported via subspace, but the methods of both how to break someone down into their requisite matter, or how exactly it's transported to the target location is never explained, for obvious reasons (it'd be really difficult to come up with an answer that isn't nonsense). And the episode with Barclay, "Realm of Fear", is contradicted with dialogue in the later episode "Bloodlines", which also has a subspace transporter.

Most of that is supposition, mainly the part about the Heisenberg compensator is based purely on its name, it's actual function is never mentioned, the part about being scanned into data is only true to a certain extend since transport is no purely data reliant, and is not strictly needed for transport as seen with the ENT and TOS transporters, and the part about Doppler shift is only assumption. It may seem to be reasonable assumption, but that's still assumption. The annual confinement beam seems to be nothing more than a long range force field in episodes, as it has bounced and confined weapons emissions from inside and outside. It also leaves out the examples I mentioned, for instance a person cannot be transported if the life energy of the person is lost, not even if they have the person's pattern stored. It doesn't mention the other examples because it's based on just a few of the well known aspects of transporters, probably from the technical manual, rather than examples from episodes.  The ENT episode with the transporter's creator makes it very clear that people become a subspace phenomina, and that they're not really broken down so much as gradually transitioned into the subspace state. With subspace transporters the difference is probably that the energy is projected into subspace rather than through normal space since transporters already exploit subspace phenomena.

As I said before, we can take Geordi's statement as being one of desperation, because of the stressful situation he was in. Now even if Gene did intend for Warp 10 to be an impossible to reach point it might not have been communicated to the script writers in time, or whoever was checking the dialogue for errors might have just missed it, or it was labeled under "Tech" in the script (which was the writers way of telling the tech researchers to just make something up and put it in the script). And you solution is still contradicted half a dozen times in Threshold, where they state explicitly that Warp 10 = infinite velocity, not a new metastable subspace field state, but infinite velocity.

Those are mostly behind the scene's explanations which don't matter in regard to an explanation within the situations. Any contradiction doesn't mean it should automatically be thrown out, the trick is to figure out how to reconcile it. You're ready to explain Geordi's reaction as hyperbole but not Paris' conversations just because they talked about it longer. If it's a matter of evidence, then the events outweigh the conversations because we have two separate events that match up more closely than the one set of conversations.

[webxro]

is it just me or they have a wormhole in TMP

[MajorD]

In The Motion Picture? Is that the one where they accidentally create a wormhole due to warp engine imbalance? It has to be one of the best accidental effects for a faster than light drive.

[Black Patriot]

In The Motion Picture? Is that the one where they accidentally create a wormhole due to warp engine imbalance? It has to be one of the best accidental effects for a faster than light drive.

And one of the slowest wormholes every created. Seriously though, if they achieved that by accident then how has Starfleet not figured out how to replicate it reliably 100 years later.

That's the lazy non-solution and completely avoids the point of discussion or figuring out in-universe answers. Development concerns are a completely separate issue.

It may be a bit lazy, but it's also somewhat scientific. Whenever there is a large sample set it is prudent to delete outliers, in order to ensure that the calculations on the rest of the data is consistent, and not put out by anomalies. If we take the same approach for canon, with one episode that was never mentioned again, and has been disowned by it's creators, then it becomes rather obvious that the best course of action is to remove it from all further calculations, in this case discussion. And there's plenty of reason to include real world concerns into the discussion of canon, especially when mistakes and continuity errors have been specifically mentioned to be errors on the part of the production team. In this case we have everyone who was involved in the episode, including some of the actors, saying that it probably shouldn't be considered a proper episode.

Because, the required energy to reach a velocity obviously changes once the barrier is broken given that a shuttle normally cannot go faster than a starship. It's not something new either, all transwarp style drives allow greater speed given equal energy.

That's true, but it would mean that a group of Starfleet rejects with a single ship's resources managed to achieve more with high speed FTL than the whole Borg collective has managed in their centuries of existence, which is even more incredible considering that they've had transwarp drive for quite a while, and access to that area of space (the "new dilithium" is much closer than the Federation, and they seem to have no trouble getting there if they want to). Quite frankly that sounds ridiculous.

There is no fixed method for transwarp travel, as the Borg have several variations, there is the Dinosaur version, and the quantum slipstream version. Not to mention coaxial and wormhole.

I think it's more that transwarp is a term for anything that uses subspace for FTL, but does it in a different manner to regular warp drive. Or it could be that they were all names for the same thing, with the exception of the last two, which I don't really remember. Which episodes were they from?

Those are mostly behind the scene's explanations which don't matter in regard to an explanation within the situations. Any contradiction doesn't mean it should automatically be thrown out, the trick is to figure out how to reconcile it. You're ready to explain Geordi's reaction as hyperbole but not Paris' conversations just because they talked about it longer. If it's a matter of evidence, then the events outweigh the conversations because we have two separate events that match up more closely than the one set of conversations.

Of course they matter, it's the reason the line is the way it is, it has all the bearing in the world. Intent is just as important as content, especially when it comes to canon. Now intent cannot override canon, but it does provide a measure of perspective about why something happened the way it did, why a character said their lines that way, and so on. I don't believe I said to throw it out because of any contradiction, it was because of a considerable contradiction which was stated several times, quite specifically and with "scientific" terms. It's not just a single conversation either, they mention it several times throughout the episode, so that theory doesn't hold water. The events may match up, but that doesn't explain the dialogue, and all the other nonsense that was portrayed as "science" in the episode.

[Aresius]

As per the whole idea of something being impossible, I can only point to the instances that
a) Any one instance where a ship of the series assumed speeds faster than Warp 10 by whatever reasons
b) The Borg are capable of going into transwarp rather simply
c) The Voth also achieved stable Transwarp and consider it simple and easy
d) AGT had Riker order the Enterprise to go to Warp 13 (Transwarp or not, 13 is beyond 10, ask any mathematician!)

If transwarp were impossible, none of these things would ever have happened. Therefore, it's not impossible per say, just "impossible" from the technical conditions and perimeters it requires.

[Black Patriot]

As per the whole idea of something being impossible, I can only point to the instances that
a) Any one instance where a ship of the series assumed speeds faster than Warp 10 by whatever reasons
b) The Borg are capable of going into transwarp rather simply
c) The Voth also achieved stable Transwarp and consider it simple and easy
d) AGT had Riker order the Enterprise to go to Warp 13 (Transwarp or not, 13 is beyond 10, ask any mathematician!)

If transwarp were impossible, none of these things would ever have happened. Therefore, it's not impossible per say, just "impossible" from the technical conditions and perimeters it requires.

if a) was before TNG then it does not violate the rules of Warp 10, as the TOS scale did not have Warp 10 as it's upper limit. "All Good Things" was confirmed to be a redesign of the warp scale, probably after the discovery of more stable energy points above warp 9 but below infinity, which would shift the upper limit to another level, like warp 15 or whatever.
b) I'm sure the Federation considers regular warp to be pretty simple, just like we consider electricity to be fairly simple
c) See b)
d) see a)

None of this changes the fact that infinite velocity is impossible, as infinity is a mathematical concept, not a physical one. That doesn't mean that they can't go really, really, really fast, so fast that it seems instantaneous, just that they can never reach infinity.

[MajorD]

And one of the slowest wormholes every created. Seriously though, if they achieved that by accident then how has Starfleet not figured out how to replicate it reliably 100 years later.

In DS9, Tril scientists tried making a wormhole but failed. There are issues with stabilizing the wormhole so it lasts a useful amount of time in a sufficiently safe state. I had forgotten, but in Voyager the MIDAS array is used to create a microwormhole to communicate with Voyager. So, they achieved it on a small scale. Apparently they called it hyper-subspace technology.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hyper-subspace

It may be a bit lazy, but it's also somewhat scientific. Whenever there is a large sample set it is prudent to delete outliers, in order to ensure that the calculations on the rest of the data is consistent, and not put out by anomalies. If we take the same approach for canon, with one episode that was never mentioned again, and has been disowned by it's creators, then it becomes rather obvious that the best course of action is to remove it from all further calculations, in this case discussion. And there's plenty of reason to include real world concerns into the discussion of canon, especially when mistakes and continuity errors have been specifically mentioned to be errors on the part of the production team. In this case we have everyone who was involved in the episode, including some of the actors, saying that it probably shouldn't be considered a proper episode.

I go by if it is in, then its in. There are too many conflicts with official statements, so I ignore the lot of them. The other problem is that even if ignoring it is scientific, it's only that way when looking at it artificially. I look at it as irrevocably part of the universe unless even the wildest attempts of explanation don't even fit thematically. Ignoring it only because it was no mentioned again is also bad form, it would involve ignoring lots of Voyager and the other series simply for never being brought up again, or being brought up in ways different from the previous episodes. We would need to ignore the coaxial warp drive, quantum slipstream, and plenty of other things as well. For instance, Riker's performances in the movies, his constant refusal of promotion, yet getting a command in Nemesis, and all of that in relation to his performances in TNG. There is no good explanation for that, but ignoring one (TNG) for the other (movies), or vice versa, is no good either.  The best explanation I've seen is that everyone was acting stupidly, not just Riker, but that has its own problems.

That's true, but it would mean that a group of Starfleet rejects with a single ship's resources managed to achieve more with high speed FTL than the whole Borg collective has managed in their centuries of existence, which is even more incredible considering that they've had transwarp drive for quite a while, and access to that area of space (the "new dilithium" is much closer than the Federation, and they seem to have no trouble getting there if they want to). Quite frankly that sounds ridiculous.

Borg aren't a good example, the only thing they may have ever researched on their own is the Omega particle, and they only explore for civilizations. To do what Voyager did would require the Borg to have found a group who also found the special dilithium, who would in turn point the way for the Borg. The dilithium also means breaking warp 10 is not a matter of technological genius, but only one of random chance.  It would only become a matter of genius if the dilithium can be artificially created.

I think it's more that transwarp is a term for anything that uses subspace for FTL, but does it in a different manner to regular warp drive. Or it could be that they were all names for the same thing, with the exception of the last two, which I don't really remember. Which episodes were they from?

There is no fixed method for transwarp travel, as the Borg have several variations, there is the Dinosaur version, and the quantum slipstream version. Not to mention coaxial and wormhole.

Borg used to appear to be able to lay conduits as they went, and they would be accessible with some sort of tachyon signal. I think laying the conduits was slower than using pre-layed ones. Those conduits would also disappear over time, and the signal could be changed, meaning they could be relocked if anyone discovered the code.  In Voyager we then see the transwarp network, which leads some people to believe the Borg actually have only one form of transwarp, but I prefer to think of it as three tightly connected forms. Path laying, path reuse, and path fixing. It also fits with Seven saying Quantum Slipstream is similar to Borg transwarp. I almost forgot that the Enterprise-D used a signal to open such a conduit, and there is Voyager riding the network conduit in the final episode, but we also have the Delta Flyer using a Borg transwarp coil on several occasions with no mention of pre-existing conduits. You don't need a special piece of equipment to use existing conduits, so using a coil tells me they must make new conduits on the fly. That's too many episodes to name, and I don't know the names anyway, but there aren't that many Borg episodes, and they're all the TNG and VOY ones, not the ENT one. The only conflict is how in "Scorpion" the Borg say it would take months to drag Voyager home, that should have been bullshit, but no one says anything.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transwarp_drive#Borg_transwarp_drive

The Dinasour one is the Voth transwarp drive which looks exactly like normal warp except for double long star streaks. VOY: "Distant Origin"
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Voth_research_vessel.jpg
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transwarp_drive#Voth_transwarp_drive

Coaxial warp drive is a space fold drive. It's another one of those drives that could have got Voyager home but was never used, like Warp 10, and Quantum Slipstream. I include QS because they only needed to use it bursts to use it safely.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Coaxial_warp_drive

Of course they matter, it's the reason the line is the way it is, it has all the bearing in the world. Intent is just as important as content, especially when it comes to canon. Now intent cannot override canon, but it does provide a measure of perspective about why something happened the way it did, why a character said their lines that way, and so on. I don't believe I said to throw it out because of any contradiction, it was because of a considerable contradiction which was stated several times, quite specifically and with "scientific" terms. It's not just a single conversation either, they mention it several times throughout the episode, so that theory doesn't hold water. The events may match up, but that doesn't explain the dialogue, and all the other nonsense that was portrayed as "science" in the episode.

The behind the scenes intent can help some, but can't be relied on. The intent was to create a commentary on how evolution doesn't have to be stronger and smarter, but it fell on its face and was about our fixed genetic destiny to turn into primitive externally gilled newts who can fly space ships.

Yes, it's a mess, so stop pointing out negative explanations of none of it existing and being impossible. Come up with an positive one that actually explains something.

[Black Patriot]

I go by if it is in, then its in. There are too many conflicts with official statements, so I ignore the lot of them. The other problem is that even if ignoring it is scientific, it's only that way when looking at it artificially. I look at it as irrevocably part of the universe unless even the wildest attempts of explanation don't even fit thematically. Ignoring it only because it was no mentioned again is also bad form, it would involve ignoring lots of Voyager and the other series simply for never being brought up again, or being brought up in ways different from the previous episodes. We would need to ignore the coaxial warp drive, quantum slipstream, and plenty of other things as well. For instance, Riker's performances in the movies, his constant refusal of promotion, yet getting a command in Nemesis, and all of that in relation to his performances in TNG. There is no good explanation for that, but ignoring one (TNG) for the other (movies), or vice versa, is no good either.  The best explanation I've seen is that everyone was acting stupidly, not just Riker, but that has its own problems.

I don't recall Riker being any worse at command in the films than he was in the episodes, with the possible exception of Generations. Seriously who has the ship move on thrusters when there's a Klingon Bird-of-Prey firing through your shields. Of course if we look at decisions made by the crew during movies then most of them come off as a bit stupid, and a few are actually reckless endangerment.

Borg aren't a good example, the only thing they may have ever researched on their own is the Omega particle, and they only explore for civilizations. To do what Voyager did would require the Borg to have found a group who also found the special dilithium, who would in turn point the way for the Borg. The dilithium also means breaking warp 10 is not a matter of technological genius, but only one of random chance.  It would only become a matter of genius if the dilithium can be artificially created.There is no fixed method for transwarp travel, as the Borg have several variations, there is the Dinosaur version, and the quantum slipstream version. Not to mention coaxial and wormhole.

That doesn't change the fact that a ship load of Starfleet washouts and criminals (and one or two legitimate officers, although that's somewhat debatable) were able to figure out transwarp before the whole scientific might of the Federation.

Borg used to appear to be able to lay conduits as they went, and they would be accessible with some sort of tachyon signal. I think laying the conduits was slower than using pre-layed ones. Those conduits would also disappear over time, and the signal could be changed, meaning they could be relocked if anyone discovered the code.  In Voyager we then see the transwarp network, which leads some people to believe the Borg actually have only one form of transwarp, but I prefer to think of it as three tightly connected forms. Path laying, path reuse, and path fixing. It also fits with Seven saying Quantum Slipstream is similar to Borg transwarp. I almost forgot that the Enterprise-D used a signal to open such a conduit, and there is Voyager riding the network conduit in the final episode, but we also have the Delta Flyer using a Borg transwarp coil on several occasions with no mention of pre-existing conduits. You don't need a special piece of equipment to use existing conduits, so using a coil tells me they must make new conduits on the fly. That's too many episodes to name, and I don't know the names anyway, but there aren't that many Borg episodes, and they're all the TNG and VOY ones, not the ENT one. The only conflict is how in "Scorpion" the Borg say it would take months to drag Voyager home, that should have been bullshit, but no one says anything.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transwarp_drive#Borg_transwarp_drive

Laying conduits is a pretty reasonable form of transwarp. So the permanent conduits are faster, but limited by needing existing infrastructure, whilst the temporary conduits can be opened by individual ships as a form of FTL, for transit to areas that don't have existing conduits. I had been wondering if something similar had been possible for the Federation with standard warp, laying high speed warp corridors between key planets, like Earth and Vulcan, decreasing both commerce and military logistics.

The Dinasour one is the Voth transwarp drive which looks exactly like normal warp except for double long star streaks. VOY: "Distant Origin"
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Voth_research_vessel.jpg
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transwarp_drive#Voth_transwarp_drive

Coaxial warp drive is a space fold drive. It's another one of those drives that could have got Voyager home but was never used, like Warp 10, and Quantum Slipstream. I include QS because they only needed to use it bursts to use it safely.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Coaxial_warp_drive

The problem I have with the Memory Alpha article on Transwarp Drive is that it assumes that all transwarp is Warp 10, and that Warp 10 is infinite speed. That makes no sense, otherwise there would be no transit time for the Borg, or the Voth. It makes a lot more sense for transwarp to simply be in the region of Warp 9.99+. It also doesn't make a lot of sense for transwarp to be possible with standard warp equipment, but since warp coils are designed to manipulate subspace, this is a relatively minor concern. What would make sense is if using standard warp coils for transwarp stressed them considerably, shortening the time between maintenance and replacement. Of course why Voyager couldn't just stock up on replacement coils and make the trip with only stops for maintenance is a different and much harder to explain question.

The behind the scenes intent can help some, but can't be relied on. The intent was to create a commentary on how evolution doesn't have to be stronger and smarter, but it fell on its face and was about our fixed genetic destiny to turn into primitive externally gilled newts who can fly space ships.

Yes, it's a mess, so stop pointing out negative explanations of none of it existing and being impossible. Come up with an positive one that actually explains something.

If it's such a mess then why bother to try to justify it in the first place? Apart from the transwarp theory, which can be used to reasonably explain most problems with the episode (apart from the dialogue), there isn't any explanation that doesn't cause further problems. So it comes down to transwarp or removing the episode from canon.

[Hiramas]

Laying conduits is a pretty reasonable form of transwarp. So the permanent conduits are faster, but limited by needing existing infrastructure, whilst the temporary conduits can be opened by individual ships as a form of FTL, for transit to areas that don't have existing conduits. I had been wondering if something similar had been possible for the Federation with standard warp, laying high speed warp corridors between key planets, like Earth and Vulcan, decreasing both commerce and military logistics.

I think I read something about that.
The theory was not, that the Federation itself could lay such conduits, but that there already were corridors of reduced subspace interference or something like that, so ships could move much faster than on different routes. They wanted to explain certain plot-drive moments this way.
Sadly I can't seem to find the article....

[Black Patriot]

I think I read something about that.
The theory was not, that the Federation itself could lay such conduits, but that there already were corridors of reduced subspace interference or something like that, so ships could move much faster than on different routes. They wanted to explain certain plot-drive moments this way.
Sadly I can't seem to find the article....

That doesn't mean that the Federation couldn't build them where they don't already exist, or increase the speed in existing ones. And you're right, it was used as a justification for some of the different travel times that have been seen in the episodes.

[MajorD]

I don't recall Riker being any worse at command in the films than he was in the episodes, with the possible exception of Generations. Seriously who has the ship move on thrusters when there's a Klingon Bird-of-Prey firing through your shields. Of course if we look at decisions made by the crew during movies then most of them come off as a bit stupid, and a few are actually reckless endangerment.

In Nemesis he leaves the bridge to hunt down the Shinzon's right hand man by himself instead of staying on the bridge and doing his job. Over all, in TNG Riker is shown to be a competent captain who uses everything and everyone at his disposal. In the movies, he ignores what he has and uses himself and others in all the wrong ways, like a bad version of that test where he had the crippled old ship. Even in Insurrection he doesn't just order everything fired, he uses a fancy trick as in the crippled ship test and Generations. I can explain it, but it's still there to cringe over there, and I'm not willing to scrap it just because it's inane.

That doesn't change the fact that a ship load of Starfleet washouts and criminals (and one or two legitimate officers, although that's somewhat debatable) were able to figure out transwarp before the whole scientific might of the Federation.

Given the circumstances it's not a big deal, and Paris and Torrez are both geniuses to some extent. No one has done more and more effective treknobabble than Torrez and Paris designed an entire ship himself as a hobby, which worked perfectly the first time out. In the final stages he had some help, but doesn't seem to have needed it. The Maquis are criminals but it doesn't mean they are inferior, plenty of them made it through Starfleet academy and had to survive years of fighting against a superior foe. That kind of fighting weeds out the weak ones.

Laying conduits is a pretty reasonable form of transwarp. So the permanent conduits are faster, but limited by needing existing infrastructure, whilst the temporary conduits can be opened by individual ships as a form of FTL, for transit to areas that don't have existing conduits. I had been wondering if something similar had been possible for the Federation with standard warp, laying high speed warp corridors between key planets, like Earth and Vulcan, decreasing both commerce and military logistics.

That's actually a warp highway theory I saw some years back, the simplest form being that high frequency use makes the space faster, but that's contradicted with the warp 5 limit episode. I think warp highways, if they exist, have to be a natural phenomena. 

The problem I have with the Memory Alpha article on Transwarp Drive is that it assumes that all transwarp is Warp 10, and that Warp 10 is infinite speed. That makes no sense, otherwise there would be no transit time for the Borg, or the Voth. It makes a lot more sense for transwarp to simply be in the region of Warp 9.99+. It also doesn't make a lot of sense for transwarp to be possible with standard warp equipment, but since warp coils are designed to manipulate subspace, this is a relatively minor concern. What would make sense is if using standard warp coils for transwarp stressed them considerably, shortening the time between maintenance and replacement. Of course why Voyager couldn't just stock up on replacement coils and make the trip with only stops for maintenance is a different and much harder to explain question.

I noticed that too, but it does not seem to effect the articles too much. They're right to bring up the inconsistency, especially since they only point out Voth transwarp is inconsistent with warp 10 transwarp, and nothing more. Borg transwarp is sufficiently different that no comment is made. I agree that it is more logical for transwarp to be before warp 10.

I think the only weird part is how the deflector is so universally useful in these advanced drive methods. If they were more dependent on the warp engines it would make more sense to me.

If it's such a mess then why bother to try to justify it in the first place? Apart from the transwarp theory, which can be used to reasonably explain most problems with the episode (apart from the dialogue), there isn't any explanation that doesn't cause further problems. So it comes down to transwarp or removing the episode from canon.

Because it's there, it's part of Trek, I don't like ignoring any of it even if it gets horribly bad. They make for some of the most interesting things to think about because they're the hardest.

[Aresius]

Nothing is infinite. Just as there is no magic, just technology we don't understand yet, infinity is an illusion. We once thought the universe is infinite, now we know it's 15-17 billion lightyears in diameter. We once thought that sonic-speed requires an infinite amount of fuel. Now we have jets and whatnot go supersonic with lesser and lesser fuel each generation. JJust you wait for the other infinites and they will crumble as well...

[Black Patriot]

Nothing is infinite. Just as there is no magic, just technology we don't understand yet, infinity is an illusion. We once thought the universe is infinite, now we know it's 15-17 billion lightyears in diameter. We once thought that sonic-speed requires an infinite amount of fuel. Now we have jets and whatnot go supersonic with lesser and lesser fuel each generation. JJust you wait for the other infinites and they will crumble as well...

I can't tell who you're directing that to, so I'll just respond like it was directed to me. Infinite velocity isn't the same as an infinite universe, velocity is a relative measure of one objects rate of change of position relative to another, it must have a time reference, such as per second, and a distance per unit of time, such as meters. Because it is based upon real units, and real objects, it cannot have a non-real measurement, such as infinity.

Thus infinite speed is impossible, because for one object to have infinite speed it would have to have either a time unit of zero, which isn't possible, time must occur, or a distance traveled for the smallest unit of time as infinite. Now because we can always make smaller and smaller units of time it isn't possible for an object to travel at one unit, because there isn't such a thing as one unit in the real world.

[Zachstar]

It is not lazy. The Warp 10 episode Threshold was just as dumb as it gets. They turn into mutant frog things mate and just a little operation manages to undo damage that COMPLETELY changes them. Not to mention why the frak would he reeappear at voyager when he could have went to earth and told starfleet what is up before jumping again.

The episode is crap, Dog doo doo, puke chunks.

Throwing it away from cannon is doing it justice.

[Aresius]

And still it is canon.

The only trouble I have is that I don't see a toad-like being as an evolved human.

[Jon Deane]

The only trouble I have is that I don't see a toad-like being as an evolved human.

Actually that's the whole point of the episode which never came across (gee, I wonder why): evolution doesn't always lead to more advanced life-forms (which is actually true).

Here's the thing I wonder: given that it's so easy to reverse the effects, why didn't Voyager just use warp 10 to go home and have the Doctor reverse the effects?

[Black Patriot]

And still it is canon.

The only trouble I have is that I don't see a toad-like being as an evolved human.

So you don't have a problem with them breaking fundamental laws of physics and mathematics, on top of fundamental laws of biology and physiology?

Actually that's the whole point of the episode which never came across (gee, I wonder why): evolution doesn't always lead to more advanced life-forms (which is actually true).

Here's the thing I wonder: given that it's so easy to reverse the effects, why didn't Voyager just use warp 10 to go home and have the Doctor reverse the effects?

Because the producers were idiots.

I hate to keep making the same point, but it has to be made: Star Trek is a TV show, it has problems that arise from being a television show. Because of this not everything can be explained from within a TV show, some things simply can't be reconciled, and when that happens you pretty much have to drop the episode from canon. When it gets to the point that an episode cannot be adequately explained within the general rules laid out by canon, which I maintain that "Threshold" can't, then it should be disregarded, or at the very least marginalized. As I said before, there are over 700 episodes of trek, statistically not all of them are going to be good, and a few of them are going to be bad and broken enough that the only way canon can be maintained is to ignore them.

[Aresius]

So you don't have a problem with them breaking fundamental laws of physics and mathematics, on top of fundamental laws of biology and physiology?

What physics?

I was only addressing this toad problem and left the other issues I have with the episode out, y'know.

I hate to keep making the same point, but it has to be made: Star Trek is a TV show, it has problems that arise from being a television show. Because of this not everything can be explained from within a TV show, some things simply can't be reconciled, and when that happens you pretty much have to drop the episode from canon. When it gets to the point that an episode cannot be adequately explained within the general rules laid out by canon, which I maintain that "Threshold" can't, then it should be disregarded, or at the very least marginalized. As I said before, there are over 700 episodes of trek, statistically not all of them are going to be good, and a few of them are going to be bad and broken enough that the only way canon can be maintained is to ignore them.

Well, I am a believer of the ideas that even the most unorthodox and obnoxious occurences can be explained by some ways. Even if that means excusing it by saying they had favourable, unique, and unreproducable conditions..

I'm not saying that Threshold is a good episode, by the story-arch itself, it's as bad as Star Trek XI and at least a half dozen other episodes throughout the entire run of Star Trek, but let's face it, it exists and we cannot discard it only because we cannot explain it. I'd rather use my imagination and freakiness to draw a half dozen conclusions, even including off-screen data and background interviews, in order to explain what happend, that shrug and turn away.

But then again, that might just be my quirk of being unable to stay away from riddles...

[Black Patriot]

What physics?

I was only addressing this toad problem and left the other issues I have with the episode out, y'know.

Ah, I wasn't sure.

Well, I am a believer of the ideas that even the most unorthodox and obnoxious occurences can be explained by some ways. Even if that means excusing it by saying they had favourable, unique, and unreproducable conditions..

I'm not saying that Threshold is a good episode, by the story-arch itself, it's as bad as Star Trek XI and at least a half dozen other episodes throughout the entire run of Star Trek, but let's face it, it exists and we cannot discard it only because we cannot explain it. I'd rather use my imagination and freakiness to draw a half dozen conclusions, even including off-screen data and background interviews, in order to explain what happend, that shrug and turn away.

But then again, that might just be my quirk of being unable to stay away from riddles...

I'm willing to accept the explanation that it was a group hallucination, or some sort of psychosis caused by all the stress of Janeway's insane orders, but there isn't any way to physically reconcile all the problems with that episode. It was quite specifically infinite speed that they attained (which is impossible, not improbable or difficult, impossible) and the rapid "evolution" is also impossible, not to mention if that was evolution it made no sense, as evolution is the process by which lifeforms adapt to better survive in their environment, and most of the changes that Paris endured would have had no benefits. If they'd just called it cellular mutations, cause by some exotic energy, then it'd be somewhat plausible, but they didn't.