Warp Turning

[Ilithi_Dragon]

I still don't see how it would have to be any more complex than any other maneuver the ship performed. Most of the systems employed would be employed during a conventional, sublight turn, or during conventional sublight acceleration or warp-speed acceleration, and Federation computers and programs are certainly advanced enough to handle the relatively minor differences in operations that would be required for a warp-speed turn.

I think the big issue for warp-speed turns are not that it would be complex to do, but that it doing so puts significant strain on the ship's spaceframe, strain and wear that is usually unnecessary outside of emergency or combat situations, and that can become problematic if endured with too much severity and/or frequency.

I don't see a need to make a warp-speed turn much more complex from a gameplay perspective than a conventional sublight turn, beyond making a preference for straight warp-speed courses and slow, drifting turns. Beyond a certain threshold, warp-speed turns should put strain on the ship's spaceframe, that can cause damage to the spaceframe if carried too far, or the spaceframe/SIF are already compromised. The only additional complexity to making a turn at warp speed should be an in-game computer alert when the player attempts to make a warp-speed turn above that aforementioned threshold if the ship is not at an elevated alert status, with the option to override, and an additional alert or two if the maneuver would present the risk of serious damage to the spaceframe or destruction of the ship that would pop up even under an elevated alert status.

[Aresius]

So, all those fancy bridge terminals are like a Christmas tree?  A blinking shinny tree that does nothing?

Ironically, most consoles behave like christmas trees regardless of whether or not they're manned. Most buttons are, essentially, to activate, schedule, program, or otherwise augment other tasks, not to finetune the task they're currently at, unless it's a task the operator himself set up and watches. And even then we can assume it's all specialsed for the task itself so only a few buttons are really needed.

Why not ask the computer to set your course and engage at speed?

Happened. When Picard retook command of the Stargazer. When Beverly was sucked into a warp-bubble and everyone was vanishing until she was in charge of the entire ship. When the EMH1 from the Voyager and the EMH2 from the Prometheus took command of the ship.

Why not have the computer do all of your battles for you?

Happened. When Picard retook command of the Stargazer, when the EMH1 from the Voyager and the EMH2 from the Prometheus took on the Romulans.

Why not have the computer analyze and identify any all objects?

Happened. When Beverley asked the ship to pull up a full scan of the area when she was in the warp bubble. When Ezri was searching for Worf.

The computer would certainly be faster.

If you look at Datas processing speed and the speed in which the computer should (and could!) have made the descisions in TNG "Booby Trap", yes.

The computer would not make an error.

Errors not, but computational flaws. A computer can only think in a linear order, even when setting up alternatives. The further you progress along any of those lines, the greater the derivation from what will really happen.

The computer would be the only crewman on a Starship.

Technically, with the two EMH's being nothing but programs - and as such extensions/contents of the computer itself, the computer was really the only crewman on the Prometheus. At least for a short while. And it survived, didn't it?

The computer is not self aware or autonomus.

True, but it is intelligent and able to learn. If you do a routine every day of the week at the same time in the same order, an intelligent, learning computer will memorise it and alter its operation modus to adapt and fasten the progress oft he routine. Such things already exist nowadays.
Oh and by the way, the thought that computers in Trek are not self-aware is disputable. In one episode of TNG, the Ent-Ds computer spawned an artificial intelligence. Before this "offspring" was created, the ships computer was self-aware and sentient. It refused to follow orders that would put it in mortal danger.

Like everything, it take team work and a good crew, but it can be done almost seamlessly.

Give the computer a body, self-consciousness and let him be part of the crew, and he'll speed up the processes greatly. Look at Data.

The computer does not directly effect any of the ships conditions, i.e ships heading or shields and speed, ect. (unless it's the self destruct or maintaining life support and other vital automated systems).  That is done by crew members.  And that we see from just about every race.  That, in itself is interesting.

Of course. If you tell the helmsman to plot a course to the Star Beta Regula, which happens to be somewhere behind you, all the helmsman does is enter the coordinates or name and hit engage/enter (we've seen that often enough), and the ship automatedly turns and speeds up until it can go to warp. If there'd be a sun in the way, the ship would automatically plot a course around it. Why?
Well, because I think Starfleets engineeres aren't daft and have programmed the computer to be intelligent enough to know that hitting a sun at any speed is not a good idea.
If you tell the helmsman to plot an intercept course, all he'll has to do is set the target and hit enter (we've seen that a couple of times as well). The computer automatically calculates angular velocity, trajectory of the own and the target vessel, point of intersection at current and likely other speeds, at which coordinates and all that stuff.
Why? Because 1: it'd take a normal human comparatively long to get through those equations and calculations, and 2: in a battle/hostile situation, things need to go quick, you don't have time to tell the captain to hang on with his orders because you're calculating.

Also not from every race. The Exocops, an alien-technology, became self-aware, learned to act on its own, react to threats and problems, and were even capable of acts of mercy and sacrifice.

[Poseidon]

Ironically, most consoles behave like christmas trees regardless of whether or not they're manned. Most buttons are, essentially, to activate, schedule, program, or otherwise augment other tasks, not to finetune the task they're currently at, unless it's a task the operator himself set up and watches. And even then we can assume it's all specialsed for the task itself so only a few buttons are really needed.

Absolutely not correct!  We see, in just about every episode, where there are adjustments made to primary/secondary systems.  Whether they are done from the bridge, engineering, or any other relavent computer station.  I really don't have the time today to pull them up.  Way wrong on this one.

Happened. When Picard retook command of the Stargazer. When Beverly was sucked into a warp-bubble and everyone was vanishing until she was in charge of the entire ship. When the EMH1 from the Voyager and the EMH2 from the Prometheus took command of the ship.

This is true, and like I said before, You can set up to do a warp jump/turn through the computer, however, the Ferengie Damon, most likely set up the bridge to receive Picards orders.  Please re-read my last post again.  GOD, I hate having to point out my last posts all the F'n time!

Happened. When Picard retook command of the Stargazer, when the EMH1 from the Voyager and the EMH2 from the Prometheus took on the Romulans.

RE-READ my last posts!!!  Ars, and I will call you that because you do not like to read my previous posts, so I will abreviate you.  Like I said before, it is most likely, that the Damon set up the Stargazer before Picard even beamed over to the ship.  The Damon is quotes as saying "I have prepared everything for you.  The ship will answer your every commands".  Even Picard is giving orders to the computer to set up for the warp jump (the Picard Maneuver).  So, that is established.  The Damon had all that time to prepare the Stargazer for Picard.  Also, the log entry was forged, so there is a lot the Damon did before he even brought back the Stargazer.  MUTE POINT!

Technically, with the two EMH's being nothing but programs - and as such extensions/contents of the computer itself, the computer was really the only crewman on the Prometheus. At least for a short while. And it survived, didn't it?

Ok, the Prometheus is a special ship, like I said before.  It is still designed for a crew.  The terminals are designed for a large crew actually.  Yes, the computer can run the ship, but Starfleet wanted crew on board for a reason.  No Starfleet ship can be in command to autonomusly run the ship by computer.  Unless experimental or otherwise, we see crewmembers on every ship.  We see bridge crews making adjustments and control the ship. 

True, but it is intelligent and able to learn. If you do a routine every day of the week at the same time in the same order, an intelligent, learning computer will memorise it and alter its operation modus to adapt and fasten the progress oft he routine. Such things already exist nowadays.
Oh and by the way, the thought that computers in Trek are not self-aware is disputable. In one episode of TNG, the Ent-Ds computer spawned an artificial intelligence. Before this "offspring" was created, the ships computer was self-aware and sentient. It refused to follow orders that would put it in mortal danger.

Not true.  The program became self aware.  The computer simply provided the input from Data asking the specified parameters for the program.  Yes, computers can become self aware (Data), but that complexity Starfleet would never rely on.  I believe primarily due to TOS episode "The Ultimate Computer".  A lot of people died in that episode and a Federation starship was crippled by the M-5 computer.  I believe Starfleet agreed "no computers will ever run starships because of that tragedy".  That has been the main theme from there on out throughout the series/movies.  Geez, look at the obvious please.

Give the computer a body, self-consciousness and let him be part of the crew, and he'll speed up the processes greatly. Look at Data.

See the previous remark.  Again, Starfleet is against any form of computer running starships.  Data was certainly able to, but everyone was highly skepteble even when Data took command of the Sutherland.  Nobody thought Data could command.  Even Picard had his doubts.  He proved far more able to command, but it took years of Starfleet service and training to get him to that level.  Data also had experiences that helped him with his command ability.  Data was unique.  In the future, there may be more, even improved Andoids, better than Data out there in Star Trek.  For the mean time, NO, the Federation would not allow a computer to command a starship.

Of course. If you tell the helmsman to plot a course to the Star Beta Regula, which happens to be somewhere behind you, all the helmsman does is enter the coordinates or name and hit engage/enter (we've seen that often enough), and the ship automatedly turns and speeds up until it can go to warp. If there'd be a sun in the way, the ship would automatically plot a course around it. Why?
Well, because I think Starfleets engineeres aren't daft and have programmed the computer to be intelligent enough to know that hitting a sun at any speed is not a good idea.
If you tell the helmsman to plot an intercept course, all he'll has to do is set the target and hit enter (we've seen that a couple of times as well). The computer automatically calculates angular velocity, trajectory of the own and the target vessel, point of intersection at current and likely other speeds, at which coordinates and all that stuff.
Why? Because 1: it'd take a normal human comparatively long to get through those equations and calculations, and 2: in a battle/hostile situation, things need to go quick, you don't have time to tell the captain to hang on with his orders because you're calculating.

Also not from every race. The Exocops, an alien-technology, became self-aware, learned to act on its own, react to threats and problems, and were even capable of acts of mercy and sacrifice.

Oh, a few things wrong here...

(a) the ship does not make course corrections on it's own.  There were at least 2 episodes where the helmsman related information about needing a "course correction" to avoid objects.  A star was one of those instances I believe.
(b) the Exocomps are an example of how computers can become self aware and even disobey an order.  They evolved to do fairly complex tasks, but Data, or any other computer based systems designed to be autonomus, are far more sophisticated.  And yet, we do not see them command starships (Data being the only acceptation so far). 

I am tired of running around in circles, explaining Star Trek tech and looking at all the evidence that the series provides.  Certain aspects of Star Trek are in contradiction.  That is were a common middle ground needs to be set.  Especially when you are dealing with a game that relys on canon and the proposed middle ground from any contradictions produced by it.  It is kind of like how our government (the US) should work.  You find common ground to establish a happy, or unhappy medium.  Unfortunately, our government over here is highly disfunctional, so that is a bad example.  Sorry for that.
 

[Aresius]

Absolutely not correct!  We see, in just about every episode, where there are adjustments made to primary/secondary systems.  Whether they are done from the bridge, engineering, or any other relavent computer station.  I really don't have the time today to pull them up.  Way wrong on this one.

Because those systems/tasks are manually operated anyway. You don't need to tell the computer what systems to check when ordering a level-x diagnosis. You just push the buttons to start and wait for the results to roll in. While the diagnosis runs, you can use the buttons to start another tasks, and if that's anutomated as well, you can use the buttons to do a third task. Maybe that one requires your operation because you just asked the computer to scan the planet you're orbiting. What are we scanning for, where, how deep, those things need to be set up manually. But the other tasks are simply started and then left alone. That's what I meant.

Happened. When Beverly was sucked into a warp-bubble and everyone was vanishing until she was in charge of the entire ship. When the EMH1 from the Voyager and the EMH2 from the Prometheus took command of the ship.

This is true, and like I said before, You can set up to do a warp jump/turn through the computer, however, the Ferengie Damon, most likely set up the bridge to receive Picards orders.  Please re-read my last post again.  GOD, I hate having to point out my last posts all the F'n time!

Okay, then let's leave the Stargazer example out, still leaves Beverley.

Happened. When Picard retook command of the Stargazer, when the EMH1 from the Voyager and the EMH2 from the Prometheus took on the Romulans.

RE-READ my last posts!!!  Ars, and I will call you that because you do not like to read my previous posts, so I will abreviate you.  Like I said before, it is most likely, that the Damon set up the Stargazer before Picard even beamed over to the ship.  The Damon is quotes as saying "I have prepared everything for you.  The ship will answer your every commands".  Even Picard is giving orders to the computer to set up for the warp jump (the Picard Maneuver).  So, that is established.  The Damon had all that time to prepare the Stargazer for Picard.  Also, the log entry was forged, so there is a lot the Damon did before he even brought back the Stargazer.  MUTE POINT!

Again, let's leave the Stargazer thing out. (though personally, I don't think that this Damon could've set up anything there. He's a Ferengi, not a Starfleet officer, he's the father of the dead big-ear, he wasn't at the Battle of Maxia to see it happen, nor were there any surviours. So how should he know what exact settings were required? Setting things up is anyway very far-flung. It could be as much as repowering the ship, repairing most important things, enabling it to react to any command given at all, because from what we gather, the Stargazer was in terrible shape when they abandoned it.) But fine, you still got one poit left to defy. The two EMHs.
Oh, and stop abbreviating my name, it has nothing to do with reading-or not-reading your posts (and by the way I did read them, I just don't accept them). It's impolite and I don't do it either. Yet!

Ok, the Prometheus is a special ship, like I said before.  It is still designed for a crew.  The terminals are designed for a large crew actually.  Yes, the computer can run the ship, but Starfleet wanted crew on board for a reason.  No Starfleet ship can be in command to autonomusly run the ship by computer.  Unless experimental or otherwise, we see crewmembers on every ship.  We see bridge crews making adjustments and control the ship. 

True, but it's theoretically possible and that was/is my point.

Not true.  The program became self aware.  The computer simply provided the input from Data asking the specified parameters for the program.  Yes, computers can become self aware (Data), but that complexity Starfleet would never rely on.  I believe primarily due to TOS episode "The Ultimate Computer".  A lot of people died in that episode and a Federation starship was crippled by the M-5 computer.  I believe Starfleet agreed "no computers will ever run starships because of that tragedy".  That has been the main theme from there on out throughout the series/movies.  Geez, look at the obvious please.

Oh come on. Watch that show again. We're talking about the emergent lifeform, not M5. The circuits were intelligent and controlled the Ent-D like a crew. It only took control of the most important things from its perspective, which was navigating to a vertion-particle source, but still it did. Stop mixing two different shows, episodes and eras! Besides, M5 was a bad idea from the beginning, because Daystrom used human (his own, that egoistical dunce) neural pathways as template. Using a flawed system can only breed flaws. I don't think that had any ban anyway as in Voyager, they have the Bio-neural gel-packs which also use neural nets, but hey, Voyager had them, so tough luck.

See the previous remark.  Again, Starfleet is against any form of computer running starships.  Data was certainly able to, but everyone was highly skepteble even when Data took command of the Sutherland.  Nobody thought Data could command.  Even Picard had his doubts.  He proved far more able to command, but it took years of Starfleet service and training to get him to that level.  Data also had experiences that helped him with his command ability.  Data was unique.  In the future, there may be more, even improved Andoids, better than Data out there in Star Trek.  For the mean time, NO, the Federation would not allow a computer to command a starship.

Data is an artifical intelligent andriod, not a computer, there's a difference. If you don't know it, read Asimov and attend IT-courses on univesities about that matter. A computer cannot command a ship like a human because it doesn't have what we cann Gut-feeling. Data managed to mimick that gut-feeling by using logic and abstract thinking, but I doubt he could even become close to a gut-feeling even after installing the emotion-chip.
Computers only operate on commands given, not ot reading between the lines. A computer can command a ship, it just cannot do so well enough. Period.

(a) the ship does not make course corrections on it's own.  There were at least 2 episodes where the helmsman related information about needing a "course correction" to avoid objects.  A star was one of those instances I believe.

Huh, Starfleet is more daft than I thought, okay, point taken.

(b) the Exocomps are an example of how computers can become self aware and even disobey an order.  They evolved to do fairly complex tasks, but Data, or any other computer based systems designed to be autonomus, are far more sophisticated.  And yet, we do not see them command starships (Data being the only acceptation so far). 

Well, the exocomps are way smaller, so we can presume that their memory capacity is also more limited (because they have less physical space for hardrives or the 24th century equivalent), but they were self-aware, self-conscious, could reason, and were able to realise that there is a dangerous situation that we humans would call life-threatening.
Data is a very delicate issue because since TNG "The Measures of Man", he's effectively a citizen of the Federation, like any biological entity. So from a legal point of view, it was just a question of time until he was given his own command, and all animosity he had to face, was essentially racism.

I am tired of running around in circles, explaining Star Trek tech and looking at all the evidence that the series provides.  Certain aspects of Star Trek are in contradiction.  That is were a common middle ground needs to be set.  Especially when you are dealing with a game that relys on canon and the proposed middle ground from any contradictions produced by it.  It is kind of like how our government (the US) should work.  You find common ground to establish a happy, or unhappy medium.  Unfortunately, our government over here is highly disfunctional, so that is a bad example.  Sorry for that.

For some reason I am reminded to a joke I once read. Father explains to a friend watching their kids kick a turle angrily around: "Well, James wanted a dog, Isabelle wanted a horse. So we gave them a turtle, so they're at least both unhappy." Truth is, our German government isn't any better. Christ-democrats and social-party for this but against that, eco-party and liberals for that but against this (and both coalitions don't even agree on all terms), leftist parties against pieces of here and for pieces of there, rightist parties against piece of there and for pieces of here. And all the while, our Chancellorette is trying to please everyone, routinely betraying her own words whenever she can.
Problem in Trek is that there are craploads of arguments. Both for and against and usually, they hold themselves in balance, and the hardliners for either side will say that a common ground defies their side(s) and makes the whole process arbitrary. But what to do? Coding every such intance of for and against in would limit us even more as it means we require certain and limited parameters to trigger this one action and it rules our any other possibility.

[L.]

The Binars in 11001001 managed to control the D pretty easily. And Picard managed to set course on an empty ship by pressing 3 buttons on his chair afterwards.

[Poseidon]

The Binars in 11001001 managed to control the D pretty easily. And Picard managed to set course on an empty ship by pressing 3 buttons on his chair afterwards.

Come on.  The Binars were living machines.  Linked through a language that was computer based.  So, they set up the computer to store everything, fake the anti-matter containment field, and created a holo-deck fantacy to keep Riker and Picard busy. 

3 buttons, that was problebly a basis to set course and engage at warp.  Most problebly only 3 needed to be pushed.

Look, if you guys say that everything on a starship is automatic, I say your full of it.  There would be no need for crew.  You can automate just about every function, but we don't see that.  That's the trouble you guys seem to have.  Maybe it is because you do not see that.  You see what you want to see. 

rs, I am not even going to respond to your post.  Not that it is right, rather, I am tired of yacking back and forth with no real rhyme or reason.  My observations are solid.  Middle ground is arguable, but has it's basis in fact.  The horse is dead.  Let it die.

[AricwithanA]

Only Star Trek geeks like us, can end up discussing a thing like "Warp Turning" and have it last 7+ pages

HA!  I'd not read this thread in awhile, so I thought to.  Eight pages and growing?  Warp Turning?  huh.

I didn't expect to be reading what I did read. 

As far as I'm concerned when it comes to warp turning that you don't turn or can only do slight angular changes at warp.  If it isn't that way in the game, I'll keep it the way the devs put it, or mod it.  I just love that so many solutions are simply solved via an easy to use mod-able setup!  lol

I'm still a little lost as to where the thread devolved to, when it comes to automation and Machine Intelligence or Adaptive Artificial Intelligence and why some times it is easy for one person to do a complex move with a push of three buttons is simple:

You are always being listened to.  I'll set the stage.  We will be involving at warp turning.

Let's say I'm just by my self crusing about at warp in my little ship.  I hit some anomaly and I can't disengage my warp drive.  I'm going to end up flying into a star! 

Does anyone notice how SF personel tend to talk to themselves?  They're not.  They are being listened to.  With LCARS made to be scaleable, moveable and highly adaptable (along with a process flow), things I need as I talk appear on the panel.  I didn't ask for them, so as I'm preparing to do one thing I've already said something in reference to what I'll be doing next and the computer prepares that at the same time so it is waiting for me.  So say while I prepare a different deflector array configuration, I've talked about needing thruster support afterwards.  The computer knows when I'm done with the deflector array and knows what I need to do next. 

Hell, my favorite is Voyager, and I swear half the time Tores already gave specifications via talking to the captain via the intercomm and thus when she is at the panel, the button pushing isn't her entering in those specifications but double checking the specifications that are already there ready to go and commanding the start of the process.

If one is on a large ship alone, the computer knows this.  As usual, SF crew talk to themselves, so the computer might know where the single crewman wants to go next before they can manually enter it into the computer so why not instead display an adaptive panel displaying that destination and if they want to go to warp along with a possible speed.

I think the main flaws with the interactive system with the main computer and the crew are subtle but visually lacking because of budget constraints.  While yes, panels might just be blinking lights, I know what they are supposed to be doing.  A computer in Trek or Trek Time is different than we have them now.  Computers are an extra sense and brain for everyone in a way while at the same time understanding it is just a tool, a tool not to be completely reliant upon.

[L.]

Ars, and I will call you that because you do not like to read my previous posts, so I will abreviate you.

Look, if you guys say that everything on a starship is automatic, I say your full of it.

Ars, I am not even going to respond to your post.  Not that it is right, rather, I am tired of yacking back and forth with no real rhyme or reason.  My observations are solid.  Middle ground is arguable, but has it's basis in fact.  The horse is dead.  Let it die.

something something act your age.

[Poseidon]

something something act your age.

Just a little testy from those who do not read my posts.  I am sick of re-hashing explanations.  So, I think it is time to give the ST:E forums a break.  A big one at that.  I do need to post much anymore.  Let this come out, then I will do my modd.  Simple as that.  I am too old to argue and too old to keep explaining anything here anyway.  All of you have figured everything out.  Go ahead with it then.  No need for me to say anything more.   

[Darkthunder]

Just a little testy from those who do not read my posts.  I am sick of re-hashing explanations.  So, I think it is time to give the ST:E forums a break.  A big one at that.  I do need to post much anymore.  Let this come out, then I will do my modd.  Simple as that.  I am too old to argue and too old to keep explaining anything here anyway.  All of you have figured everything out.  Go ahead with it then.  No need for me to say anything more.

A childish response. I agree with Lewis here. Act your age. (which I suppose is true for the above post)

[Poseidon]

A childish response. I agree with Lewis here. Act your age. (which I suppose is true for the above post)

PM INBOUND!

[Darkthunder]

PM INBOUND!

Sorry, but listing your contacts with the Okudas and various other members who made Star Trek, doesn't absolve you from your "childish response" in this thread. I feel no need to derail this thread further, and suggest you drop the matter as well, and behave more appropriately.

[Poseidon]

Sorry, but listing your contacts with the Okudas and various other members who made Star Trek, doesn't absolve you from your "childish response" in this thread. I feel no need to derail this thread further, and suggest you drop the matter as well, and behave more appropriately.

Just a little testy from those who do not read my posts.  I am sick of re-hashing explanations.  So, I think it is time to give the ST:E forums a break.  A big one at that.  I do need to post much anymore.  Let this come out, then I will do my modd.  Simple as that.  I am too old to argue and too old to keep explaining anything here anyway.  All of you have figured everything out.  Go ahead with it then.  No need for me to say anything more.

[/color]

[John]

Can you guys give a rest.  I don't want either of you to post in this thread again.