Author Topic: The Tricorder  (Read 16267 times)

Offline MajorD

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2010, 04:39:23 AM »
That looks really good, but I think there should be more buttons :P
Also the TNG one I was referring to was actually a PAAD sorry, I can't find an image of it, but it was the red one La Forge had.
Bah, everyone wants primitive 1990's technology. Make that 80's tech since the 90's had stylus displays. Well, here are modern ones.
http://www.amrel.com/rugged-computers/military-rugged-PDA.asp
http://ruggedpcreview.com/3_handhelds_handheldus_nautiz_x5.html
http://ruggedpcreview.com/3_handhelds_handheldus_nautiz_x7.html
And I think what we need with the tricorder design is for it to have a bit of depth, so holding it wont obscure the readout.
A wider boarder? Mine has a narrow boarder, but I'm able to hold it securely without blocking the screen area. But, here it is with a wider boarder, it does help prevent overhanging the screen, but I prefer having a larger screen and the software accounting for possible overhang. This isn't the sort of device you hold by pinching the sides. It's now as wide as the iPod screen and only slightly taller.

I did make the device thicker, it actually helps place the device better in the hand and adds more room for an isolinear chip. It's a bit heavy but not too bad.





Yes, It's the red one in the background but you can't really see the D-Pad in that shot, oh and here is a horrible tacky UI (which I am still working on) :P
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7022505/Tricorder/UI/2UI%20-%20Functions.png
I actually like that, it just has a lot of wasted space. Which I know is canon, but still annoying. Strings of random numbers make sense for making stuff on TV look fancy and active, also because normally most people won't make it out. But, on a device like this, I think those need to be meaningful numbers, or words and act as buttons. They should probably be tab style buttons.
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Offline Brex

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2010, 04:49:28 AM »
Maybe I could have like a 'page' system where different icons appear on each page, using some of the wasted space, but not all :)

Offline ii123

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2010, 07:53:21 AM »
With regards to heads up displays, it would be an idea to integrate information in the tricoder into the hud, so details such as life signs, anomalous energy readings, weapons charging, etc appear visually in order to make action more fluid and allow quick descions. Possibly a mode for showing only plot relevant information would be usefull in tight situations. [This type of integration of information is used in cover shooters to bleed colour from surroundings depending on level of cover etc.]. For detailed analysis a cursor mode for selecting/contextual options could be used to speed things up. Perhaps with an animation for pressing the buttons rapidly. Manual use of tricorders can be left in of course as an option..

If a lot of character development is to be used within missions, covering eyes with visors is not a good idea if emotion etc. need to be conveyed. This would mostly depend on the tris number/animation possibilities designed into faces.. Maybe calling it situational awareness once tricoder skills are sufficient is an option, and possibly making a speed penalty. Creating a contact lens based hud device is an option, with a relay attached to the side of the forehead to show who is wearing them.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 08:06:58 AM by ii123 »

Offline 11001001

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2010, 08:03:59 AM »
What would be good in the game is if you need to use the tricorder, a small sign at the bottom or top of the screen showing tricorder could be used to display the readouts on full screen view. I don't mean take away the view from what you are doing like a seperate screen, make it so it is transparent or something but stop the game time while you are using the tricorder, that way, the game doesnt run away with you. I see what you saying aswell MajorD, if you increase the space around the screen of the tricorder, that way you can get a firm grip on it and you fingers will be sufficiently away from the screen so as not to obscure it. By the way, what would the button in your clay modelling be used for?

Offline MajorD

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2010, 09:13:13 AM »
With regards to heads up displays, it would be an idea to integrate information in the tricoder into the hud, so details such as life signs, anomalous energy readings, weapons charging, etc appear visually in order to make action more fluid and allow quick descions. Possibly a mode for showing only plot relevant information would be usefull in tight situations. [This type of integration of information is used in cover shooters to bleed colour from surroundings depending on level of cover etc.]. For detailed analysis a cursor mode for selecting/contextual options could be used to speed things up. Perhaps with an animation for pressing the buttons rapidly. Manual use of tricorders can be left in of course as an option..
A composite information view is definitely something I would want. Some of the information may be too subtle or not apply well to a visual system, but much of it would. For instance, anything leaving a trail would work easily no matter the style of data, anomalous area effect traces too, as well as signal direction would all work into a single visual mode no matter the type of radiation if it has a detectable source.

For more detailed information it should be possible to activate a detail mode that brings up data windows and different visual overlays.

General information isolation modes would also be useful. For instance, material age mode would be great for finding a particularly old or new object. A magnetic imaging mode for finding a needle in a haystack

If a lot of character development is to be used within missions, covering eyes with visors is not a good idea if emotion etc. need to be conveyed.
That's an issue I have with Mass Effect 2. In the first one the helmet would not appear during conversations. In ME2, the helmet is always there no matter what, and if you have a full face covering helmet, then you can't see the eyes and mouth. You can chose to have no helmet at all, but that forgoes suit bonuses, and no one wants to take a game penalty for a cinematic advantage. There are also non-customizable bonus suits that can't have their helmets removed.

This has the further issue of you being able to buy drinks, which when done you tilt it back... into your faceplate. Yet, somehow you drink the drink and the screen starts waving about as if drunk. This is why I like the idea of a visor that can retract, change tint, or eliminate projections, so you can have a clear view of the face when appropriate, and it makes sense in the game's context.

What would be good in the game is if you need to use the tricorder, a small sign at the bottom or top of the screen showing tricorder could be used to display the readouts on full screen view. I don't mean take away the view from what you are doing like a seperate screen, make it so it is transparent or something but stop the game time while you are using the tricorder, that way, the game doesnt run away with you. I see what you saying aswell MajorD, if you increase the space around the screen of the tricorder, that way you can get a firm grip on it and you fingers will be sufficiently away from the screen so as not to obscure it. By the way, what would the button in your clay modelling be used for?
To some degree I would actually like the game to keep running even if you zoom into the tricorder. That way you have to make sure things are clear before taking your attention away. It also means you can scan moving objects.

The button on the upper left is supposed to be the emergency button that the other tricorders have. I don't know if it's just a distress signal or if it dumps all the scanned info to the closest source, but for it to be so big and prominent I figure it must be important to get to fast.
http://text100sydney.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/tricorder-replica.jpg

The wider boarder really isn't needed though, especially if a traditional LCARS interface is used which will have a built in boarder taking up screen space.
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Offline Luke

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2010, 02:05:45 AM »
Hi, thanks Brex, MajorD, and Dragonhydra for your ideas.

Major d, i like the extruded back part of your tricorder design, and the location of the isolinear chip, ive added it to the current tricorder design, aswell as the emergency button location.

Which brings me onto the next point:
Having programs stored on iso chips doesn't make sense, as we know information can be transmitted wirelessly in a split second, and that tricorders for emergency purposes probably contain every program and utility they will ever need. (with the exception of the medical tricorder) So perhaps iso-chips should only be used by starfleet for high security missions, which for security purposes hasnt been downloaded or sent through the ship systems. Or other high security stuff?

Dragonhydra, i like your idea about being able to arrange the tabs and functions the way the player wants. perhaps this could be linked in with the idea of having isolinear presets, load in a iso-chip, and the associated tabs and options are automatically arranged to the top/ front.

Furyofaseraph, that breen tricorder is really good, feel free to post any other designs you've done.

I will be making the nemesis tricorder, so you will have a choice of which one you use. We might just copy the UI over from the excalibur tricorder, so it may not be canon to what weve seen on screen but it shouldnt detract too much from the experience, we'll see what the UI guys say.
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Offline Brex

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2010, 02:22:06 AM »
I still don't like the idea of having the medical scanner in the top :P
It wouldn't really fit, unless you wasted a lot of space, it would definitively need to be in the side :)

Offline Luke

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2010, 02:38:15 AM »
Im trying to make it 'fit in' instead of it being an afterthought, just chucked in a hole in the back like the Mk X. I could put it in the side, but it would be really thin, ill see what it looks like.
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Offline ii123

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2010, 05:33:30 AM »
General information isolation modes would also be useful. For instance, material age mode would be great for finding a particularly old or new object. A magnetic imaging mode for finding a needle in a haystack

Given the amount of lore present, it might be an idea to have a database for tricorders.Just right clicking on objects during cursor mode and running idents would link to encyclopedia.
[Similar to the one in alpha centauri, all it would require is an update mechanism which parses a community edited wiki].
Modders then would need to associate each object/material with a corresponding code to the wiki entry then adding a new material would be possible under the mod category.

Probably this would involve coming up with a generic knowledge framework for each class of objects, eg. a lifeform might involve organic/inorganic/energy/mission specific, induvidual/collective/combination, with subsections under each section..

This would improve immersion by allowing non-star trek fans to understand intricacies and save on explaining/facilitate problem solving for mission designers.

Given a significant portion of star trek is about exploration, the ability to upload scans of new species, interesting geology, anomalies, military installation floor plans etc. for detailed analysis would be useful to mission designers as well.

That's an issue I have with Mass Effect 2. In the first one the helmet would not appear during conversations. In ME2, the helmet is always there no matter what, and if you have a full face covering helmet, then you can't see the eyes and mouth. You can chose to have no helmet at all, but that forgoes suit bonuses, and no one wants to take a game penalty for a cinematic advantage. There are also non-customizable bonus suits that can't have their helmets removed.

Presumably this explains why there is not much in the way of body language concealing armour in star trek. It becomes awkward to have a life or death discussion with a mechanised suit of armour.
------------------------

With regards to aesthetics, having monochromatic , matt textures in gui makes it look cartoonish?..translucent, backlit gui seen through a thick glass might make it look futuristic without sacrificing cannon-icity..

Offline MajorD

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2010, 12:22:27 PM »
Hi, thanks Brex, MajorD, and Dragonhydra for your ideas.

Major d, i like the extruded back part of your tricorder design, and the location of the isolinear chip, ive added it to the current tricorder design, aswell as the emergency button location.
I'm tickled pink by the way this is going. :)

If the isolinear chip can go all the way in, flush with the device, I was thinking pressing the chip in slightly would release a spring that would push it part way out so it can be pulled out the rest of the way. That way, you could have a chip in there the whole time without getting in the way. However, if the intent is to only ever have a chip temporarily, then only being able to go in part way makes sense.

On the matter of isolinear chips, I would love to see ones of various sizes.
http://www.treksinscifi.com/collection/thumbnails.php?album=41

For the medical version what about bulking up the part around the removable scanner so it protrudes both up and out a bit as if the scanner were thicker than the thickness of the unit? But, the scanner doesn't need to be that thick, only look that thick when in the tricorder, or it can actually be that thick.

Quote
Which brings me onto the next point:
Having programs stored on iso chips doesn't make sense, as we know information can be transmitted wirelessly in a split second, and that tricorders for emergency purposes probably contain every program and utility they will ever need. (with the exception of the medical tricorder) So perhaps iso-chips should only be used by starfleet for high security missions, which for security purposes hasnt been downloaded or sent through the ship systems. Or other high security stuff?

Dragonhydra, i like your idea about being able to arrange the tabs and functions the way the player wants. perhaps this could be linked in with the idea of having isolinear presets, load in a iso-chip, and the associated tabs and options are automatically arranged to the top/ front.
You're right about the wireless aspect, at the same time it needs to be heavily exploited. I would go so far as always having a link to any open sensors. That way, if the ship is in range to scan and send pertinent data, it should automatically be integrated into the data you receive through the tricorder. It would explain how a tricorder can scan to a planet's core from the surface. However, since the tricorder is closer to the object or phenomena being studied, the tricorder should allow high resolution data within its range, leaving ship's sensors for long range, lower detail scanning. It's relative though, since ship sensors in Star Trek can read DNA from orbit, at least in a general manner.

I like the idea for isolinear chips. It makes sense for high security data transfer but it also makes sense for transferring extremely large files in a very short time due to high priority. There was an experiment done where a DVD was attached to a snail, and the snail's speed was measured. Snail pulled DVD's have a higher bandwidth than average broadband! As long as storage mediums outpace connection standards, physical data transfer should remain faster. There may also be programs large enough that they require an entire chip. I think Quark had two security programs on two separate isolinear rods to pass a high level security clearance, or maybe it was a single program but still on two rods.

I like the preset idea too. With a USB drive you can save all your settings for a computer, or even have a light OS build. Carrying around such an isolinear chip would allow you to save the interface preferences for multiple systems. Although, if you store your presets on your ship's systems, then retrieving those presets should be as simple as connecting to the ship. You would only need your presets chip if taking a trip where multiple transfers would be needed, such as going on an intervening shuttle ride and losing contact with your ship.

A personal collection of chips would probably involve high volume programs (such as holonovels), nostalgic data, secure personal information, secure work files, and general backups for those mindful of such things. There are color coded chips, so it's probably standard practice to divide such files among the appropriately labeled chips, which is a good idea in order to avoid losing everything thanks to the destruction of a single chip. An additional use for the tricorder could be as a wireless isolinear chip drive for when you don't have a convenient console with a slot.
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Offline Brex

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2010, 01:53:12 PM »
Most Tricorders have an isoliner chip in them already, and each isolinear chip is supposed to take up 4.3kilaquads (4.3 times the total information currently stored on earth, about 6billion yottabytes so one isoliner chip = 2.58e+34bytes (give or take :P)) so quite simply... do we need isolinear chips for things other than data transfer, and in that case, why don't we just use a USB cable? I think any expansion would realistically have to be a hardware expansion.

From 'The Computers of Startrek' - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sGPdfeFsu1kC&dq=the+computers+of+star+trek&source=bl&ots=-Ne1tQ9BTt&sig=jWShg9gHI4rB7sWmY1V1RlfK6KE&hl=en&ei=aubwS8eBG4Si0gTluancBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAQ

Offline MajorD

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2010, 02:44:21 PM »
I think I'll get that book. What little I've seen it does highlight something very important, the Trek network is archaic. I think it's worth updating anything not up to date. The iCorder and making it fully networked fits right in with an updated concept, so might as well go whole hog with all the computer stuff.

Since cell phones have SIM card and memory slots, what if the isolinear chip slot is its main storage location? That way, it's not saying they transfer info by chip, but that the device has upgradable storage. There is even the remote possibility of maxing out the memory and needing to slip in an extra chip to keep going if your connection to a facility or ship were cut. The Large Hadron Collider generates so much information that the majority goes uncollected, yet it still needs a vast, automated, library of tape drives to store what it does keep. Tricorders are powerful devices that can scan really weird phenomena, so I wouldn't put it past it to collect several Internet's worth of data. I know, it's still absurd.
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Offline Chris

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2010, 04:23:49 PM »
I know, it's still absurd.
It only sounds absurd because we probably won't see it happen in our lifetimes.

A current estimate of the size of the internet is roughly 5mTB, and is expanding at roughly 100TB per month (Google CEO) :shock:
I'd be amazed if the majority of the forum members have more than 1TB in their own computers (not including the mountain of memory sticks and ext HDDs lying around :P). I think I would be willing to edge my bets to saying that only a handful of people will have over 2TB; there will be some, but not many.

But to see progress, lets look at some storage devices that exist (not necessarily in production ;)) with links:
DVD - 4.7GB per layer
Blu-ray - 25GB per layer
HVD (Holographic Versatile Disc) - up to 10TB

These are just rough figures...and it is not including Holographic Cubes or IBMs Millipede memory. (These are just from memory...I am sure there are more out there)

I am not sure there will ever be a device that will catch up with the size of the internet, as both are constantly growing (hell, I could be wrong...look back 5, 10 or 20 years and you'll find all sorts of ridiculous claims; "will never need TB as it is too big", "IBM: there will only be 4/5 computers in the world...and we will own all of them" etc.) ... these quotes are definitely not accurate, but you get the gist.

I would guarantee that there will be a device that can hold the internet as we know it now some time in the future.


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Offline Toxa

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #73 on: May 17, 2010, 05:11:21 PM »
why not something more futuristic  :lol:



with LCARS interface  :D
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Offline Luiz

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #74 on: May 17, 2010, 09:51:00 PM »
Toxa: Excalibur is set very few years after nemesis, so we wont go too far with tech.

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2010, 10:54:38 PM »
Toxa: Excalibur is set very few years after nemesis, so we wont go too far with tech.

I don't think it is too High Tech for Star trek (IMO Star Trek is the most High tech universe) it's just a different style (design) :D

Anyway they kept the same tricorder design for at least 11 years (2364~2375) so I think you should keep the tricorder from nemesis  :)
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Offline Brex

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #76 on: May 17, 2010, 11:05:24 PM »
But the tricorder in Nemesis was brand new, it - like the uniform in FC was under review of the people who used it. By Nemesis, the uniforms had changed, but the same basic design was still there (either that or the wardrobe department got sloppy :P). So I think it would be reasonable to assume that the design would be under review still (also Nemesis was in 2386, and I think that's the first on screen usage of a touch screen tricorder, so I think we'll be ok :))

Offline ii123

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2010, 11:19:33 PM »
I think any expansion would realistically have to be a hardware expansion.

At the risk of further derailing....

If you assume an electron associated with an atom could be in 8*10 possible eigenstates, 10e34 atoms would require 10e35*8 bits to store data..[assuming zero compressibility]..
1gram of hydrogen is approximately 10e24, so it would only require 10 billion grams=6 million kg [a small hill..] of highly exited hydrogen (to require exitation to 80 levels, lol) to require that much data..

In reality, the eigenstates of any complex compound would be far more complex [electron spin, particle momentum, nuclear forces etc], so even to save the transporter data of an exited compound would require a lot of data..
Maybe not that unreasonable..

-------------------

Interestingly the human genome is only 3 billion base pairs (about 800 mb of data, enough for a usb stick?). Even allowing for a lot more data to be necessary for describing ribosomes, various cellular structures like organelles it would be possible to save the essense of the species on a hard drive [given not much is required to record diversity as even chimps share 94 percent of dna]. A lot less prone to annihilation if it came down to it..

It only sounds absurd because we probably won't see it happen in our lifetimes.
..
I would guarantee that there will be a device that can hold the internet as we know it now some time in the future.

With current use of magnetic domains on platters there is a theoratical limit on information density as the domain shrinks and the energy associated with magnetisation becomes close to random fluctuations [anyone know what it is called?], and current technology is rapidly approaching it..

Other technologies being developed look more promising.. I think
Gates said 64 kb was more ram than would be ever needed at one point..

Offline Chris

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2010, 01:02:24 AM »
I think Gates said 64 kb was more ram than would be ever needed at one point..
:lol: Another quote added to my "quotes that should have never been uttered" repertoire.

With current use of magnetic domains on platters there is a theoratical limit on information density as the domain shrinks and the energy associated with magnetisation becomes close to random fluctuations [anyone know what it is called?], and current technology is rapidly approaching it.
Well, the Millipede memory project at IBM shows some promise (again this is one from memory, so there are probably other better potentials); it claims that it could achieve 1Tb per square inch (that's Terabit, not Terabyte). In layman's terms (prepare for a wiki quote :() this means "4 times the density of magnetic storage available today". However, from what I can tell, this project is at least a decade old as they did one of the original demos in 2002!?! The moral of the story is: There is always something in the pipeworks.

Sorry everyone for sidetracking again :P


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Offline 11001001

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Re: The tricorder
« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2010, 01:29:26 AM »
Interestingly the human genome is only 3 billion base pairs (about 800 mb of data, enough for a usb stick?). Even allowing for a lot more data to be necessary for describing ribosomes, various cellular structures like organelles it would be possible to save the essense of the species on a hard drive [given not much is required to record diversity as even chimps share 94 percent of dna]. A lot less prone to annihilation if it came down to it..

Yes, and sorry to go off topic, but whenever anyone compares a compuuter to the human brain, the human beats hands down. The brain can store, 10 with 8,432 noughts behind it, terabytes worth of data thats alot. The only reason we dont recall eveything is becuase our brain can't recall everything, our brains degrade, neurons cease to exist, memory last only a few short hours, whereas computers do not.